I Hate Mountains!

[Timberjaw]

I really like IHM. I liked that the maps were confusing and dark because it made everything scarier. It's the apocalypse. It's chaos. It made me feel more like I was trying to escape a terrifying situation and less like I was confidently following a predetermined path with a known outcome.

The bot/zombie pathing is problematic in places (though that's true in Valve's campaigns as well).

I miss the L4D2-style panic events (though the end of the Manor is close to being one).

Overall the campaign could benefit from another layer of polish and bug-testing...there are minor issues here and there. The campaign has to be released and played for that to happen though.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Ya, there are some serious pathing issues. We got a tank in one of the catacomb levels, and all it did is climb up and down a train car until we killed it with pistols.

 

[NykO18]

I think I enraged them.

Why would you think that? It's not because we disagree that we're arguing.
There's some quite good points in your post but most of it is blatant nitpicking considering the amount of work required to make a whole Left 4 Dead campaign. It's true that it's dark, but that was the point. If you don't like it being dark, adjust your gamma settings accordingly.

Interestingly enough Icarus joined a game earlier today with some Valve employees, and they pretty much had the same opinion. :bored:

I'll believe it when they'll say it to us, I couldn't care less about some things Valve employees could have probably said in a random game to a random guy reporting it here. By the way, half the Internet disagreed with their handling of the Left 4 Dead 2 release, I think we can handle a bunch of Valve employees disagreeing with the way we like our games.

 

[Leminnes]

Why would you think that? It's not because we disagree that we're arguing.
There's some quite good points in your post but most of it is blatant nitpicking considering the amount of work required to make a whole Left 4 Dead campaign. It's true that it's dark, but that was the point. If you don't like it being dark, adjust your gamma settings accordingly.


I'll believe it when they'll say it to us, I couldn't care less about some things Valve employees could have probably said in a random game to a random guy reporting it here. By the way, half the Internet disagreed with their handling of the Left 4 Dead 2 release, I think we can handle a bunch of Valve employees disagreeing with the way we like our games.

Don't willfully dismiss it, though. I'd see if you could find the guys and have a chat with them. Perhaps Icarus could get you guys together to talk about it.

As for nit-picking, I'd take that as a compliment. If he needs to nit-pick, then there isn't major problems for him to complain about. However, things like how dark it is and how confusing it is, I think, are just opinions and various people will disagree. I agree with the people who made it that it makes the game more tense (in theory, at least. I haven't been able to play it.)

Just, don't dismiss the criticism just because you disagree with it. Perhaps there's another, underlaying issue that is causing Icarus (and others) to complain? Sometimes the problem might manifest itself as one thing (in this case darkness and confusion) but perhaps be another issue causing these problems. Just a thought.

 

[NykO18]

Erm... something might have gone wrong somewhere, we're not dismissing the criticism, we're explaining why we disagree. I don't see why it's wrong, there will always be people criticizing for good or bad reasons, we just can't please anyone and Icarus is among them, that's just a matter of opinions.

As for nit-picking, I'd take that as a compliment.

I'd take it as a compliment if this wasn't the only reason they're considering the whole campaign as a failure.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Im sad that NykO18 had to register an account here just to argue with Icarus.

The campaign is amazing. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

The people here are mappers. They know their stuff, and they love to nitpick.

 

[NykO18]

No, don't take it wrong too, I'm not arguing right now and the campaign is not perfect at all. It's just that it's perfect enough for most people and it's what matters to us, because it's just too hard to make it perfect for everyone (in fact, it's impossible).

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Think about it: There are two people that are telling you that they have flaws with your campaign: Icarus, an extremely good mapper (check out his stuff, like Coldfront, and Vector), and some Valve employees. They are used to perfection.

 

[NykO18]

Think about it: There are two people that are telling you that they have flaws with your campaign: Icarus, an extremely good mapper (check out his stuff, like Coldfront, and Vector), and some Valve employees. They are used to perfection.

And they are also probably quite good at knowing what makes a great level, but it's just that at this point, we disagree. It will always work this way, I didn't like Left 4 Dead 2, they didn't like I Hate Mountains, it's just like with colors and food, you can't argue over things like that. There's arguments all over the Internet over which of Left 4 Dead 1 or Left 4 Dead 2 is the best, and these people will never agree. That doesn't mean they're wrong, it's just that they don't like the same thing. Also, it's easier to complain about a whole Left 4 Dead campaign when you're doing single levels on a perfectly well supported game and engine You can't even imagine what we had to deal with under the Left 4 Dead engine.

 

[Leminnes]

Erm... something might have gone wrong somewhere, we're not dismissing the criticism, we're explaining why we disagree. I don't see why it's wrong, there will always be people criticizing for good or bad reasons, we just can't please anyone and Icarus is among them, that's just a matter of opinions.


I'd take it as a compliment if this wasn't the only reason they're considering the whole campaign as a failure.

Ah, well, that's not EXACTLY what I meant. I just kinda mean, if you don't agree with his opinion then there's no reason to explain why you disagree. Just say "Okay, I appreciate your criticism but we are going elsewhere with this than you would like us to. But, again, we appreciate your criticism and will use it when we find it necessary."

However, I'm not one to talk. If someone had criticized something I'd been working on for over a year, I'd react similarly. However, the above is how I feel someone should react to criticism they disagree with.

 

[Bermuda Cake]

They can't say "this campaign is gonna be better than VALVe" (or equal to w/e) and then:

Sometimes, when it's not your job and you're only giving this a couple hours a day into the making, there's simply a lot of things you can't do.

when map layout is clearly something that there's a lot you can do about. Also, the criticisms on blood harvest's rescue vehicle is completely unfounded, the truck does a whole lap of the house before it comes to a rest! Oh well, I haven't played it yet, I'm defo looking forward to it though.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

And they are also probably quite good at knowing what makes a great level, but it's just that at this point, we disagree. It will always work this way, I didn't like Left 4 Dead 2, they didn't like I Hate Mountains, it's just like with colors and food, you can't argue over things like that. There's arguments all over the Internet over which of Left 4 Dead 1 or Left 4 Dead 2 is the best, and these people will never agree. That doesn't mean they're wrong, it's just that they don't like the same thing. Also, it's easier to complain about a whole Left 4 Dead campaign when you're doing single levels on a perfectly well supported game and engine You can't even imagine what we had to deal with under the Left 4 Dead engine.

-edited for rudeness-
We use the same engine, buddy.

TF2 and L4D both use Source, and in fact, the L4D version is quite similar, if not better than the TF2 version of it.

 

[NykO18]

I just kinda mean, if you don't agree with his opinion then there's no reason to explain why you disagree. Just say "Okay, I appreciate your criticism but we are going elsewhere with this than you would like us to. But, again, we appreciate your criticism and will use it when we find it necessary."

Well I don't know, I'm kind of big-mouthed and I like people to know why I disagree.
Just saying "I disagree" seems plain childish to me. Then again, I might be wrong, but that's the way I roll.

We use the same engine, buddy.
TF2 and L4D both use Source, and in fact, the L4D version is quite similar, if not better than the TF2 version of it.

Also, Grim Tuesday, you obviously know nothing about what you're talking about. These are very different versions of the Source engine and the Left 4 Dead version has A LOT of major flaws.

They can't say "this campaign is gonna be better than VALVe" (or equal to w/e)

Hopefully we never said anything like that.
We said we were going to do this the same way Valve does, which means, 5 levels, classic crescendo events, funny jokes on the walls, and such.

Also, the criticisms on blood harvest's rescue vehicle is completely unfounded, the truck does a whole lap of the house before it comes to a rest

Yeah well, the delay after the last tank is killed is hard-coded in the engine and can't be longer. It would have been too long to wait for the plane considering the amount of infected coming right after you. We tried to make it fly over the finale area before landing but, this was just too long.

 

[Leminnes]

We use the same engine, buddy.

TF2 and L4D both use Source, and in fact, the L4D version is quite similar, if not better than the TF2 version of it.

Yeeeeeah, grim. They are fairly different in a few aspects. The dude does have a point.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Although they may be different, can the L4D version of the engine NOT do anything that the TF2 one can?

PS: The hooded guy tried to touch my nipples!

 

[NykO18]

Although they may be different, can the L4D version of the engine NOT do anything that the TF2 one can?

They obviously share a lot, but the TF2 tools and engine don't have major flaws. The Left 4 Dead 1 engine doesn't even properly support custom content like sounds, particles, hints, models, and such.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

In that case, then I am sorry I insulted you. I didnt think about what I was talking about, as in the TF2 version, those things are not really that important, whereas in L4D, they are what makes the game.

 

[lana]

I hate to kick you off your high horse, but I've managed to make a few L4D levels before the L4D2 authoring tools came out. I didn't notice that the tools caused gameplay to instantly go down the shitter. Sorry to put it so blunt, but "You don't know what we had to use" is not an excuse for lower quality gameplay. IHM is very good for a custom campaign, but it needs lots of work on gameplay to make it even better.

I really don't give a crap about custom content, as long as you can apply the fundamentals of the game to make something that's entertaining and doesn't take an hour to figure out which way you're going. If I'm with a new player in IHM, I don't want to be slowed down because he took the wrong path or ended up backtracking, just as any other veteran player.

 

[NykO18]

Sorry to hear that, hope you'll find happiness in any of all the other great custom campaigns for Left 4 Dead out there.
What you consider a major flaw is the thing people are praising us for doing, don't know how that works for you, but I'll stick to listening to the other 99% of people.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Its sad that this thread has ended up this way, when you really have an amazing campaign.