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cliffside

Discussion in 'Map Factory' started by Tapp, May 29, 2010.

  1. Tapp

    Tapp L10: Glamorous Member

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    Hillcrest

    "The structure you have created is a huge swiss cheese mess of ramps and doorways."
    "Those buildings look way too under-detailed. I hope this is still being worked on."
    "WHY HAS NOBODY NOTICED THE SECOND HANDLE ON THE TOOLBOX"
    Everybody's raving about Tapp's newest map, hillcrest! Forged from rash clicking on a bugged hammer, contraversial optimisation and delusions of grandeur, hillcrest is the ultimate gateway drug, to add spice to your shooting life.

    Map description:
    koth_hillcrest is a small-ish koth map, the first map to come out of me since the disasterous and aptly named plc_regret. I've put a lot of emphasis on height, using it largely as a flank route. There are quite a few straight sightlines, partly as a result of using l4d more than tf2 lately, and deliberately. The map plays quite well against bots, and any stalemates that result are easily and quickly resolved. Of course, I have no idea how this map plays with human players because, well, I haven't tested it.
    It's been exactly a month since the original release, and during that month I believe that I have fixed all problems I could see with the map. Many of you may be having heart-attacks at some of the sightlines, but they have all been balanced. Spots with long sightlines are either easily accessible by the enemy, have a very small area which can be shot through, or require the sniper looking down, which makes sniping a LOT harder. The map has a large emphasis on free movement, with plenty of flank routes, and it's usually easy to get from one area to another without entering the central fray.
    Still to do:
    Fix up brushes
    Have a gameday :)rolleyes:)
    Possibly:
    Shorten sightlines
    Nerf sentry spots
    Push spawns back
    Open up play
    Please rate, comment and play!
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2010
  2. The Political Gamer

    aa The Political Gamer

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  3. TheTurnip

    TheTurnip L2: Junior Member

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    ಠ_ಠ

    Dangnabit, I was just about to post a similar koth map (though I was going to call it cliffface, not cliffside) :p
     
  4. Tapp

    Tapp L10: Glamorous Member

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    I'll change the name with the next update
     
  5. (-TN-) Ben2

    (-TN-) Ben2 L4: Comfortable Member

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    gonfin changed the name of his map to cliffsedge
     
  6. Tapp

    Tapp L10: Glamorous Member

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    Well, until I flesh out a better name, the map shall be called cliffface, seeing as though somebody else already took cliffside, cliffedge and 'the map formerly known as cliffside'
     
  7. absurdistof

    aa absurdistof

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    Parts of the map look pretty dark, and parts of the map looks really tight, but by the same token it looks really fun and interesting. I'll give this one a DL.

    EDIT: Don't forget to mark your gametype ;)

    EDIT 2: Ok, your map's freakin tiny. TINY. It's also dark.

    [​IMG]
    Use lights, not light_spots. Just tack them onto the walls and watch the magic happen :)

    [​IMG]
    Cool concept, might strike some people as odd or aggravating though, at the least I would lower both more closely to the ground.

    [​IMG]
    Another interesting concept, but the fact that you had to include it says way to much about both mine and your fears about the spam that could go down here.

    [​IMG]
    Not too sure why this ramp goes down here, unless you want to hide or something. Dark dark dark dark dark dark dark dark dark dark dark dark dark get some lights!.

    [​IMG]
    I could fit that within the spawn/final capture area of my map.

    EDIT 3: And by the way put some lights in all the other screenshots too, especially minding distant walls and ceilings.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2010
  8. Tapp

    Tapp L10: Glamorous Member

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    Thanks for the feedback absurdistof, I'll try smacking a few light entities around the map. I know the map is small (It plays well in 6v6, enough said), but do you think I should expand it lengthways or in the direction of the spawns? Should I open up play space or scatter players? I know what you mean about spam, but if players mainly stick to the high areas and don't simply rush into the point (which is my goal) spam should be mostly avoidable. As for the floating healthkit, that was actually a trick taken from gravelpit. In addition to being a healthkit, its height means it replenishes the health of anybody rocker-jumping up (unless you were talking about that). That ramp that goes down to nowhere was originally a spawn exit, but was raised to the platform above in an attempt to reduce spawn-camping. Thanks for the feedback, once again. Also, while testing the map with bots, an interesting problem arose. Engineers had a habit of building sentry nests underneath the afformentioned floating healthkit. They managed to build them thanks to bot who were more interested in the point than silly sentries. I eventually reached a point when sentry nests were on both sides, obliderating anybody who attempted to stand on the hill. The game stalemated completely for about an hour (I think). How would you resolve this problem? I've given the sentries a massive weak spot in the hole in the ceiling, as well as a few out-of range areas, but bots (like pub players) have been unable to work out how to use these. Looking at the incompetance of bots and predominance of soldiers and demomen, with the optimum teams being 6 a side, I might consider branding this for competitive play...
    EDIT: I've just gotten the deathmap back from a night of bots, and it doesn't look good. The point has become a mass graveyard, with carpet of deaths covering the point. It's got hazard tape for a reason. The key problem is the two sentry positions that overlap on the point, and the bots inability to notice them.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2010
  9. PL-7764

    PL-7764 L6: Sharp Member

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    Had a quick run-through earlier. Personally I felt like this was too small for TF2 - might be a personal thing, but it definitely seemed like everything was too close together. The architecture is also pretty bizarre, I can't tell where you're going with it at this point - it's like parts of buildings that fell apart or something. Kind of disorienting at this point. :bored:

    I see most everything I had to say was already said, but I'll reiterate some of those things, with accompanying screenshots (and maybe have an original thought or two in the process :p):

    [​IMG]
    You have TONS of health and ammo in this map for its size. I'd say that in a map this size, you almost don't need health or ammo at all because the resupplies are so close by at any moment.

    [​IMG]
    Again ... too much health and ammo. Always good to have enough, but too much is almost as frustrating as not enough. Perhaps even more, since people can just keep healing rather than dying. ;)

    [​IMG]
    This view of the BLU spawn exit was taken from the corresponding RED exit. As you can see, this is a nasty sightline (a very short distance too - those two exits are within <10 seconds' walking time of each other...). Far too easy to camp.

    Speaking of exits ... why are there four for each team on a map this size? :p

    [​IMG]
    These two exits can be easily camped by a single demo in this spot. Also, the one at the far left edge of the screen (cut off, in the shadows) can be watched over at the same time, but it's a little harder. Not harder enough to stop some people though.

    [​IMG]
    Dark ...

    [​IMG]
    Darker ...

    [​IMG]
    I don't even remember where this was now. :p

    Overall, I think the biggest thing to do here would be to spread out a bit more. Maybe reduce or remove some of the vertical things, add more horizontal playing space (MUCH more - this feels cramped and sort of cluttered right now), and definitely move the spawns back.

    One thing to possibly consider: notice how Viaduct has extra "rooms" between the spawns and the main battlefield area - I think this is a great feature, as it not only keeps the resupplies from being easy to dart in and out of during battle, but it also allows players some reprieve from attackers if they go back into this area towards their spawn so that they can regroup and plan what to do next. Alternatively, the attackers can follow them in and try to finish off the retreating player/s if they feel so inclined - this puts them at risk though as the other team has home-court advantage being right next to their resupply. Sawmill also sort-of has these areas, albeit more open versions, in the form of the stretches of hill on either side of the center structure. Harvest, although it was a community map, has this too, in the yards between the teams' main buildings and their respective spawns. The buildings there act as an extension of this space.

    Anyway, I think those areas are an essential part of a good KOTH map. You might try adding those in to both give some more gameplay space and stop the spawns from being so easily reachable/campable.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2010
  10. Grim Tuesday

    aa Grim Tuesday

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    How do you make deathmaps for bots?

    It would be wonderful for you to share this knowledge with the public :D
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 2
  11. absurdistof

    aa absurdistof

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    Well I feel guilty offering direct solutions, but here's what I offer:

    I would expand the area around the cp, so it has some breathing room, and possibly elevate it ~64 units above everything else.

    In terms of map expansion, I would expand in both directions (wide side and spawns) and add more distance between buildings (maybe have 256-348u wide 'streets', which could enable second level buildings. That brings me on to my next point which is that if you have more cover at the top (buildings) players are more inclined to go up there, but presently it's wide open, so in a lot of ways it's more scary then the bottom.

    Also, for the engineer buildings, if you opened up another door on the the wall facing whichever spawn, so that it looks like a T, that could make sentries there a lot less powerful.
     
  12. StickZer0

    aa StickZer0 💙💙💃💙💙

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    How did you make those death-maps?
    That would be incredibly useful for everyone here if you shared how you did it, we've been looking for something like that for ages
     
  13. cyked

    cyked L3: Member

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    • Thanks Thanks x 2
  14. Tapp

    Tapp L10: Glamorous Member

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    Well, I took PL and absurdistof's advice about as liberally as possible. I've opened up the point, by physically selecting everything left and right of the point, and moving them 256 units away. I've put the point on a hill (to reduce spam on the point itself) and I am planning on pushing the spawns back. The high areas have become a maze of cover, and I've removed the health kit and ammo pack from underneath the hole (both to reduce the amount of health in the map, as well as to stop the bots from building there (pitiful, I know, but if bots overpower your map, pub players will have even more varied skill and predictability). It's quite hard to tell whether I've managed to encouraged spread-out play, since bots tend to want to converge in the centre at all costs. With 4 exits from each spawn (or what is now the front of their base), seperate levels and a lot of routes that travel around the point, I feel like players could easily avoid spam if they tried. Anyway, here's some pics of how the central area is looking with the changes:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  15. Tapp

    Tapp L10: Glamorous Member

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    New version of the map is out. Renamed Hillcrest. Desperately awaiting playtest, if you have a spare server.
     
  16. The Political Gamer

    aa The Political Gamer

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    Remove the quote from your first post. That will stop the page from fucking up.
     
  17. Tyker

    Tyker L5: Dapper Member

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    It plays very actively. Lots of options to take, lots of different strategies to try, fun.

    However, what theme are you going to give this map? With the geometry I see now, I can't figure a good theme for it and you will have to make things look pretty sometime (probably beta). So choose what you will use before you get there or you won't be able to fit it on the geometry.
     
  18. Urban

    aa Urban

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    That centre cp looks like it will be a little awkward to get up.
     
  19. DaBeatzProject

    aa DaBeatzProject

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    get rid of the quote tags in your first post please - it is fucking up the site's layout! D:
     
  20. HeaH

    HeaH L8: Fancy Shmancy Member

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    What the hell happened to the site here?