Word of caution: Some people have been getting that "Different version" error, much to my bewilderment. Re-download the BSP for tommorrow just to be safe.
Finally found someone willing to playtest RC1a. The general consensus so far is "Good map, shorten the sign on the ground"
Thus, work on RC2 begins.
Thus, work on RC2 begins.
keithgarry
L2: Junior Member
- Apr 16, 2009
- 59
- 8
Pretty good map, so far. It's a shame that some commentators have been less than helpful considering how much thought and hard work you've put into this project. So I want to share some thoughts of my own and wish you the best of luck gametesting tomorrow. 
Spawnrooms and Cap Routes
Now I've put quite a lot of hours into 2fort. I've played the shit out of all of the classes. And after all the horsing around I decided to actually try to play with strategy. Without getting in depth about classes or team dynamics and how to bark orders without actually sounding bossy, I want to talk about the respawn problem you were getting at. Supposedly in your mind placing the respawn room along the same route as the intel-return route is a mistake. I beg to differ! Yes, by the time you grab the intel and head back upstairs the team has respawned. In a highly competitive environment the intelligence is pulled gradually over time. If it were easy to cap an intel in one life, that would not be fair. The point is to pull the intel to a less than ideal defense position, and then the next wave of team mates will try to pull it along even farther.
In this case, say I pulled the intel to this room. Even though this room can be defended easily, it is actually a less than ideal spot to have the intel at for defenders. It causes the defending team to turtle which means the attacking team now has access to build in the battlements. The sentries can be picked off rather easily by soldiers (shoot around corners at sniper deck). In any case, the intelligence can be pulled much easier from this location if the defenders get careless. If you can get the intel to the first floor, your team is golden. All of this is assuming you are playing on a regular respawn time server. Also this isn't to say placing respawn rooms away/behind the capture route can't work, either
Checkpoint Review
Now on to your map!
Spawnroom:
As soon as I spawned I fell into the shower room and took damage. That kind of sucked. Why is this hole so big? It obstructs player movement. (Granted I was a scout and double jumped.)
Here's a nodraw mishap.
The moment I stepped outside it felt very squished together.
These areas are nicely proportioned and provide some decent sentry/dispenser positioning.
..And a minor clipping problem here.
Setting aside those few problems I really do like this map. It's small enough to provide some good fights without needing a lot of players. It seems like many of the classes can utilize this map and the action will always be in-your-face. The detailing is nice, too, and I like the way you've been presenting the map with an upbeat style. Anywho I wish you goodluck Asylum and hope to see some more mapping from you in the future.
Spawnrooms and Cap Routes
Now I've put quite a lot of hours into 2fort. I've played the shit out of all of the classes. And after all the horsing around I decided to actually try to play with strategy. Without getting in depth about classes or team dynamics and how to bark orders without actually sounding bossy, I want to talk about the respawn problem you were getting at. Supposedly in your mind placing the respawn room along the same route as the intel-return route is a mistake. I beg to differ! Yes, by the time you grab the intel and head back upstairs the team has respawned. In a highly competitive environment the intelligence is pulled gradually over time. If it were easy to cap an intel in one life, that would not be fair. The point is to pull the intel to a less than ideal defense position, and then the next wave of team mates will try to pull it along even farther.
In this case, say I pulled the intel to this room. Even though this room can be defended easily, it is actually a less than ideal spot to have the intel at for defenders. It causes the defending team to turtle which means the attacking team now has access to build in the battlements. The sentries can be picked off rather easily by soldiers (shoot around corners at sniper deck). In any case, the intelligence can be pulled much easier from this location if the defenders get careless. If you can get the intel to the first floor, your team is golden. All of this is assuming you are playing on a regular respawn time server. Also this isn't to say placing respawn rooms away/behind the capture route can't work, either
Checkpoint Review
Now on to your map!
Spawnroom:
As soon as I spawned I fell into the shower room and took damage. That kind of sucked. Why is this hole so big? It obstructs player movement. (Granted I was a scout and double jumped.)
Here's a nodraw mishap.
The moment I stepped outside it felt very squished together.
These areas are nicely proportioned and provide some decent sentry/dispenser positioning.
..And a minor clipping problem here.
Setting aside those few problems I really do like this map. It's small enough to provide some good fights without needing a lot of players. It seems like many of the classes can utilize this map and the action will always be in-your-face. The detailing is nice, too, and I like the way you've been presenting the map with an upbeat style. Anywho I wish you goodluck Asylum and hope to see some more mapping from you in the future.
What you've said about 2fort may be true, but that's the exact consensus I got when asking people why they hate 2fort so much. The big problem with 2fort's design can be split into two branches, which route you'd take the intel topside.
Through the spiral stairway, It's a long climb around a narrow corridor. I've yet to see any remotley competent defense fail to stop an intel-stealer going up spiral. And then what? You've got the intel sitting in the top floor right outside the enemy spawnroom at best, or inside the said narrow stairway at worst. Either a miracle crit spree for the offense team happens, or the defense has to suddenly become amazingly stupid for the intel to budge an inch in there.
Through the courtyard is the more viable option. Unfortunately, those sentry guns you destroyed to get up through the courtyard and into the basement? Yep, they're back, and you're likely to drop the intel on the doorstep of the upper level instead of the courtyard floor. No team is likley to swarm soley around the courtyard if their intel is dragged there. You've still got the defense on the battlements for the express purpose of denying soldiers/demomen entry. All that really happens is the defending team (for the most part) stops attacking the other team's base. Sentries are still a nightmare, especially if there are two guarding the courtyard.
That a team's flag should be put in extreme jeopardy ought to be punishment enough for their defense failing them. Their "second chance" should be granted to them only when their flag is returned.
Now, Checkpoint on the other hand....
The intel room is designed so that no single sentry can effectively defend the base by itself, by splitting it up into three sections. One sentry inside the middle (valley) has no hope of defending the outer walkways. One sentry placed on either walkway has no hope of defending the middle, or the other walkway. Even two sentries placed in either section have no answer to an attack coming from the undefended section. As opposed to 2fort, where two sentries in the courtyard would pretty much lock the whole place down.
Now, addressing the spawnroom question. The spawnroom was designed so that any class could just get out and go at it quickly, but hindering Engineers running back to the cabinet for a quick metal restock (And the hole is big so that people would notice it :/ ). Like Valve's commentary suggested, you either take the long, safe route, or the short and dangerous route. Taking the "Navajo long walk" up to the resupply cabinet is the long and safe route for Engineers. Venturing outside the base for metal is considerably more dangerous but quicker. This forces Engineers to build their stuff in a horribly inefficient manner, and leaving their buildings unattended for extended periods of time. Obviously the ideal place for a Sentry would be inside the valley. But this extends the build time and the time spent away from the sentry. The quicker place for Sentry building is in the walkways, but it leaves the valley (and the intel) completely undefended.
Plus, once the attacking team has the intel stolen and on it's way, they don't stick around very long inside the base (unless the defending team is bewilderingly incompetent)
ETA: Also keep in mind that this map was originally designed with the Competitive CTF Contest in mind, with fast caps as a priority
Through the spiral stairway, It's a long climb around a narrow corridor. I've yet to see any remotley competent defense fail to stop an intel-stealer going up spiral. And then what? You've got the intel sitting in the top floor right outside the enemy spawnroom at best, or inside the said narrow stairway at worst. Either a miracle crit spree for the offense team happens, or the defense has to suddenly become amazingly stupid for the intel to budge an inch in there.
Through the courtyard is the more viable option. Unfortunately, those sentry guns you destroyed to get up through the courtyard and into the basement? Yep, they're back, and you're likely to drop the intel on the doorstep of the upper level instead of the courtyard floor. No team is likley to swarm soley around the courtyard if their intel is dragged there. You've still got the defense on the battlements for the express purpose of denying soldiers/demomen entry. All that really happens is the defending team (for the most part) stops attacking the other team's base. Sentries are still a nightmare, especially if there are two guarding the courtyard.
That a team's flag should be put in extreme jeopardy ought to be punishment enough for their defense failing them. Their "second chance" should be granted to them only when their flag is returned.
Now, Checkpoint on the other hand....
The intel room is designed so that no single sentry can effectively defend the base by itself, by splitting it up into three sections. One sentry inside the middle (valley) has no hope of defending the outer walkways. One sentry placed on either walkway has no hope of defending the middle, or the other walkway. Even two sentries placed in either section have no answer to an attack coming from the undefended section. As opposed to 2fort, where two sentries in the courtyard would pretty much lock the whole place down.
Now, addressing the spawnroom question. The spawnroom was designed so that any class could just get out and go at it quickly, but hindering Engineers running back to the cabinet for a quick metal restock (And the hole is big so that people would notice it :/ ). Like Valve's commentary suggested, you either take the long, safe route, or the short and dangerous route. Taking the "Navajo long walk" up to the resupply cabinet is the long and safe route for Engineers. Venturing outside the base for metal is considerably more dangerous but quicker. This forces Engineers to build their stuff in a horribly inefficient manner, and leaving their buildings unattended for extended periods of time. Obviously the ideal place for a Sentry would be inside the valley. But this extends the build time and the time spent away from the sentry. The quicker place for Sentry building is in the walkways, but it leaves the valley (and the intel) completely undefended.
Plus, once the attacking team has the intel stolen and on it's way, they don't stick around very long inside the base (unless the defending team is bewilderingly incompetent)
ETA: Also keep in mind that this map was originally designed with the Competitive CTF Contest in mind, with fast caps as a priority
Last edited by a moderator:
- Sep 28, 2009
- 3,075
- 2,778
Remove. The damn. Sign. It's annoying and serves no purpose other than to block jumps and look ugly. Then add side entrances to the bases so that the three entrances aren't all on the same flat wall. A single demoman can easily place stickies on all doors and lock down the area.
What part of "I am never removing the sign" wasn't clear?
Oh no, god forbid you have to put some effort into carrying the intel to your base when you can just RJ your way across the map with it. Hell why don't I just move the intel all the way up to the enemy team's doorstep while I'm at it?
Exaggerating much?
lucky
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- May 25, 2009
- 583
- 145
While I had fun, that was because I was on the winning team who eventually camped the intel cavern in to a lockdown situation; Nerdboy's "exaggeration" isn't too far from the truth.
My suggestion to make it harder to close down all the entrances. Whatever you do, I would like to see a change from all doors being watched from one point easily.
Can't say I like the spawnroom drop-downs, but I understand your reason for doing so with the engineers
The mid, while I felt it worked well enough, we didn't really get to use it much for battles as most fighting went on outside the entrances.
My suggestion to make it harder to close down all the entrances. Whatever you do, I would like to see a change from all doors being watched from one point easily.
Can't say I like the spawnroom drop-downs, but I understand your reason for doing so with the engineers
The mid, while I felt it worked well enough, we didn't really get to use it much for battles as most fighting went on outside the entrances.
What else can you expect out of a team with a medic vs team without a medic? I'm sorry that the other team's winning combination of 4 scouts and a pyro didn't provide a challenge. Now if this were a regular occurrence, I'd be concerned. Since I haven't seen total steamrolls happen 9 out of 10 playtests, I don't think it's anything more than a functional team crushing a dysfuctional team. Hell, I've been steamrolled/gone steamrolling on maps like Dustbowl and Badlands before. Shit teams happen.
My suggestion to make it harder to close down all the entrances. Whatever you do, I would like to see a change from all doors being watched from one point easily.
Alright, say we have a Demoman defending the base with stickies. 2 on the walkway doors, 4 on the main door. Someone comes in the left door, and boom. Now the entrances are completely undefended, and he has to go across the base resetting his trap, blind to the other two doors. With the SR It wouldn't take him as long, but he'd find it difficult to defend the base from a blitz.
Now, it'd be understandable and perhaps a gamebreaking problem if all the entrances were all right next to each other, that a single Demo could lock the base down at all times. But with the three doors being spread out a fair distance, he can successfully lock down the base just that one time for that first enemy running in. One Demo? I won't say it's impossible, but that one Demoman would have to be really, really, really good.
lucky
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- May 25, 2009
- 583
- 145
The problem is that it's not just one demo versus the enemy. It's one demo and the rest of his team waiting there too. The demo just provides the over-the-top advantage.
I'm not blaming the map for the imbalance, I'm just saying that this is the experience I had from your map and how it was to play from that perspective.
I'm not blaming the map for the imbalance, I'm just saying that this is the experience I had from your map and how it was to play from that perspective.
I guess it could stand to be wider. Longer, I think that boat set sail long ago, but wider is def. viable.
NEW AND EXCITING
Checkpoint RC2!
Other than the smaller sign in the middle being dropped back down, this is the only significant change I've made. This may very well be the last build before the final product is good to go.
CHANGES FROM RC1
- Widened the middle ground
- The small sign is back to it's original dimensions
- "Navajo long walk" to the spawns get a facelift
- Everything is better playerclipped than before
Checkpoint RC2!
Other than the smaller sign in the middle being dropped back down, this is the only significant change I've made. This may very well be the last build before the final product is good to go.
CHANGES FROM RC1
- Widened the middle ground
- The small sign is back to it's original dimensions
- "Navajo long walk" to the spawns get a facelift
- Everything is better playerclipped than before
... so RC3's been "finished" for awhile now. I've spent the better part of the last year wondering how to give it that one last tweak before calling it done.
What I've done now is added adjustments to the respawn time. Picking up the Intelligence shortens your team's respawn time, and capturing/returning puts it back at normal. A cheap, easy way out of the turtling problem, sure, but I hope it works.
I haven't forgotten about Checkpoint, but I don't want it to suck after I add "_final" to the filename
What I've done now is added adjustments to the respawn time. Picking up the Intelligence shortens your team's respawn time, and capturing/returning puts it back at normal. A cheap, easy way out of the turtling problem, sure, but I hope it works.
I haven't forgotten about Checkpoint, but I don't want it to suck after I add "_final" to the filename
Well, it's either good or it isn't.
http://forums.tf2maps.net/downloads.php?do=file&id=4910
CHANGES FROM RC2
- Minor clipping issues resolved
- Picking up the Intel reduces your team's respawn time. Captured or returned Intel resets the respawn time.
http://forums.tf2maps.net/downloads.php?do=file&id=4910
CHANGES FROM RC2
- Minor clipping issues resolved
- Picking up the Intel reduces your team's respawn time. Captured or returned Intel resets the respawn time.
Just had a spin with it 6v6, played great. I think we're pretty much done here.
So I figure all that's left is tweaking hint brushes and we're done. Other than that expect to see this on a few event days, and a final release in February.
