Cherokee

KotH Cherokee a11

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Zeus

Zeus

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Oct 15, 2014
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Cherokee - Them are some big trees

The mercs find themselves in in a logging town near the Sierra Nevada mountains!

This is my first map! Take it easy on me :)

I tried to design the layout around what I believe would be fun for 6v6's competitive.

Let me know what you think!
 
FloofCollie

FloofCollie

I really suck!
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Nov 5, 2016
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It looks really nice and open, love the feel of the shade cast by the trees. :)
If you haven't already, join the Discord and add it to the IMP list! I'd love to play on it!
 
Zeus

Zeus

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Oct 15, 2014
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sumo said:
You missed quite a lot of clip brushes, I can access practically everywhere within the Skybox. Fix this before releasing the map for TF2Maps testing.

Your pack placement is strange, there's a medium health pack hidden in a corner to the right of the Shutter doors at Mid. Going to grab this pack would leave me at the mercy of a dead end, and most players will miss it as they come out of the Shutters. Medium ammo packs in close proximity to the point means that defenders can stick quite close to it all game, without any retreating or overextending required to re-up on ammo. ( Viaduct also places medium ammo close to the point, however defenders still have to retreat into a spot where they have no view of the point to collect it )

Those props ( FURNACES???? ) at Mid that you can hide inside have some lighting bug, I'm no expert on the topic, but their interiors appear pitch black, while players inside are still fully illuminated. They're also just a bit useless, once you're inside you have to jump over the lip to escape, and once you're inside you're a sitting duck. Generally, if an area puts you at a huge disadvantage, it should also give you at least somewhat of an advantage ( for example, Gravelpit's B roof, you're fully visible from all angles, but you're also able to shoot down upon the point from highground )

Those awkward fences along the decks that look across Mid should be replaced with normal railings. That way players can jump out over the railings from the decks and are able to shoot through ALL of the prop, rather than only through select parts of it, which is naturally quite confusing to players familiar with handrails.

There is a lot of space pre-Mid that you can't actually fire at or have leverage over Mid from, populated fully with packs and little houses. You want fights to happen around the point, so Yards like this that don't help you stage a push will only push back fighting and slow down attacking teams.

Looking forward to playing the map, until it is tested, this is all I have to say.
Click to expand...

Hey thanks for the feedback!

My pack placement is likely going to change a lot. I agree, I dont want packs to be too easy to camp at mid, so thats why i only have the smalls; though I think i have too many as is. The medium pack under the dropdown window does force a player to go into a somewhat risky position to grab it, and its ideal for a player on roamer to be able to pick up a pack like that.

That "furnace" thing is supposed to be a generator? At least thats the prop name. I flipped it around to make it impossible for players to jump in. The reason I have that there is to block a sniper sightline, and I've been unable to find something that fills that space as well as that. I might just put up a brush there instead.

I like the look of those fences, but i'll prob make them not clip and add player clipping there instead

I'm not quite sure I understand your last comment about space pre-mid?
 
Zeus

Zeus

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Oct 15, 2014
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koth_cherokee_a2

Layout
  • Added a room by the generator on mid.
    • Allows for players (mainly scout) to get to the roof
    • Better for scout to be able to deny fast bombing soldiers
  • Removed bridge between the trees in choke
    • Players assumed it would be walkable
    • Making it walkable is too good of position for solider and sniper
Gameplay
  • Added func_respawn brushes in respawn rooms
  • Added clipping around entire map and buildings
  • Added clipping to mid bridge
  • Added clipping on base of stump so players dont get stuck in the tree
  • Added props to block holes on mid
  • Added patches under all health and ammo
  • Added lights to dark-ish areas
  • Fixed floating props and brushes
Aesthetics
  • Updated fog settings, makes it look a lot better

Read the rest of this update entry...
 
Zeus

Zeus

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Oct 15, 2014
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koth_cherokee_a3

Layout
  • Complete revamp of spawn and last buildings
  • Move Spawn area closer to building with shutter
    • Mid needs to be emphasized more, have less fighting space to discourage fights closer to spawn
  • Complete the side by banana with a train
    • Leaves geometery open, but still adds height variation
    • Building by banana didn't make much sense, and gave sniper a nasty sightline
  • Removed ramp going to the balcony on mid
    • Snipers can cover all entrances without being in much danger
    • Strong position for spam
    • Strong position for sentrys
Aesthetics
  • Waterfall particles and ambient sound
  • First pass at 3D Skybox
Other
  • Basic env_soundscape
Bugs/Known Issues
  • Lots of displacements not sewing correctly
  • Big problems with lighting
    • sequoia trees make the whole map way too dark
  • Stopper on the train does not match the texture of the grass

Read the rest of this update entry...
 
Zeus

Zeus

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Oct 15, 2014
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lucrative said:
Hi there! I made a small review video of your map :) hope you enjoy it

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkoHQUpbkQ8&feature=youtu.be
Click to expand...

Wow im so flattered; Lucative reviewed my first map hahah!

I appericiate the feedback man! I threw out what I had last night my friends wanted to play on it; i totally forgot to turn on the clipping and all that. I fully intend on finding every one of those edge bugs and fixing those, but thats a lot of tedium while i havent even flushed out the layout fully yet; but def will have a good amount of that before I have 6's players test it.

1) I've had a lot of people say they didn't like the shutter, which surprises me a bit. I orginally had it because I wanted to make it so the team holding the point wouldn't be able to know the other team was about to push out; also it would prevent spamming into that building. Since then I did some height in there so you might be right; ill remove it in the next version and see how it plays. :)

2) This was the first full compile I did with the 3d skybox and all the tree foliage, and it is much darker than I want the end result to be. I'm not sure how to go about fixing that, I was planning on getting some more expert help haha. I agree, there needs to be some lights and I do need to brighten up the map quite a bit.

3) I didn't even consider how to do a foward hold on the map. I'll keep that in mind; I want to redo a bit of that transition area anyway. I was thinking it might be cool to have a "tree platform" to fight on, so maybe Ill play with that idea.

4) Dropdown I had because I wanted a "flank" route to go out of, so that you could try to sneak a scout or soldier sack in. Also if a defender wanted the pack they would have to completely leave combat to get it, and risk getting dropped on by the enemy. I will leave that in there for now and see how it plays. If it does become a "death trap" then I'll take your suggestion.

5) I've had a mixed bag of feedback about the fences. I think they need to be high to prevent really crazy bombs. One thought was to put up a wall there and put a 1 way window in it. Not sure. I'll prob go with your suggestion and make the forward one fully opaque.

6) The rocks on the point I would def be hesitant to change. I will add some smooth clipping on them to try to help movement on them. I thought I might make them a bit taller to provide better cover for medic. This is def something I will want to have some play testing on and see how more players feel about it

7) You're right about the balcony; it is too narrow. I will open that up a bit in the next version

8) The roof over the patio on mid, i've had a number of people say the same, so I'll be trimming that building as well. Also if sniper could get up there it's too strong of a position since he can mostly safely see all the entrances. I'll prob go back to slanting the roof and trimming it back so that the tree blocks the view


This is good feedback and I really appreciate you making that vid. To anyone reading this i'm 100% open to suggestions and feedback, I want to make this map as fun as possible!
 
lucrative

lucrative

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Dec 28, 2018
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Id be more than happy to test the map in my pugs if some of the issues i outlined are addressed :) will be paying attnetion for updates!
 
seanji

seanji

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Jan 13, 2019
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flank routes coming from highground above a medium health pack are counter-intuitive. the point of a flank route is that it FLANKS, this dropdown draws attention and doesnt put you in any position to get behind the enemy.
 
Zeus

Zeus

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Oct 15, 2014
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@lucrative can you elaborate further on what you mean by "needing something to land on" when high bombing? I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Wouldn't a high bomb mean that you're either trying to make space or sack for their medic? In either case, wouldn't landing on one of the rock clusters be ideal becasue of the slight height advantage and less fall damage? And if you take a bomb super duper high then you are probably going for a high risk play already?

I was thinking about putting something over mid that you can't jump over to prevent really nutty bombs, like how viaduct has that overpass. Maybe in context of my map it'll just be a unwalkable rope bridge or something?
 
lucrative

lucrative

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Dec 28, 2018
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Zeus3005 said:
@lucrative can you elaborate further on what you mean by "needing something to land on" when high bombing? I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Wouldn't a high bomb mean that you're either trying to make space or sack for their medic? In either case, wouldn't landing on one of the rock clusters be ideal becasue of the slight height advantage and less fall damage? And if you take a bomb super duper high then you are probably going for a high risk play already?

I was thinking about putting something over mid that you can't jump over to prevent really nutty bombs, like how viaduct has that overpass. Maybe in context of my map it'll just be a unwalkable rope bridge or something?
Click to expand...

In high level competitive soldiers are usually the weakest class overall, generally they have to be very aggressive to allow their team to do anything and generally they are going to want some sort of height advantage to land on so they don't just die instantly. usually those types of smaller heights (but still relatively safe) need to be more involved with the general fighting arena, or else your soldiers just die and there isn't much else for them to do.
 
Zeus

Zeus

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Oct 15, 2014
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lucrative said:
In high level competitive soldiers are usually the weakest class overall, generally they have to be very aggressive to allow their team to do anything and generally they are going to want some sort of height advantage to land on so they don't just die instantly. usually those types of smaller heights (but still relatively safe) need to be more involved with the general fighting arena, or else your soldiers just die and there isn't much else for them to do.
Click to expand...

Makes sense. I'm going to try to setup some rocks that are much easier and intuitive to walk on + add some clipping to really smooth it out


I am however struggling to think of how I'm going to setup the out of spawn area to allow for something of a foward hold but not give the holding team too much advantage. Do you have any suggestions? (The only koth maps I know of that even have something like this is Viaduct and maybe Bagel?)
 
Zeus

Zeus

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Oct 15, 2014
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Layout
  • Shrink side buildings and the awning on top; too much vision for a player who could get that high ground
  • Widen up balcony area
  • Re-open side of mid with health ammo and "flank" route?
  • Removed dropdown entirely and refactored that entire building
    • Added a small platform that only soldier and scout can get to; while attacking team can walk into from other side
  • Refactored the spawn area buildings
    • Left route gives attacker a spam angle, high ground, and quick path to banana with a health pack on the way
    • Middle route is more obiovus, and fastest for medic; but puts attacker at a height disad below porch
    • Far right gives a even level to porch and is able to be fast rolled with by soldier
Gameplay
  • Fixed some rocks near the cap
  • Removed the shutter :(
    • Almost every peice of feedback has said this is not a good element in the map
  • Fences near banana both totally opaque
  • Moved health and ammos around to the building, patio and on the trains
  • Clipping on everything and put a height cap on map
    • Fully planning on having to adjust this more precisely depending on feedback
  • Added some temporary light entities.
    • These will make more sense when detailing happens
  • Added 1 way window in the shutter building to give attacking team sight of what they might be pushing into
    • This is an expirment but had a few people ask for it; i may remove it later
  • Fixed some edge bugs on brushes particularly around the cap
Aesthetics
  • Compiled a custom skin for the train_stop model to match the alpine theme :D
  • Actually made the 3d skybox make some sense

Known issues
  • Light env should be adjusted to better light the whole map and not make it so dark
  • Some displament bugs due to verticies not lining up correctly
  • Need block bullet clipping in little pits by rocks and such; particularly on mid
  • How high do I allow players to go as demo / solider?
  • Clipping on tree branches should prob not be allowed

Read the rest of this update entry...
 
Zeus

Zeus

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Oct 15, 2014
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@lucrative Would you mind taking a look at a4? I'd love your feedback on the changes I made, and or have a play test with 6's players

I've had it tested a couple times by the tf2maps discord, no major complaints about the layout (or clipping haha)
 
lucrative

lucrative

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Dec 28, 2018
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sorry ive been very busy lately with new job, I will be adding this to my testing list :)
 
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