- Dec 18, 2022
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Typeracer submitted a new resource:
dust devil - new years resolution complete
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dust devil - new years resolution complete
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- Thread starter Typeracer
- Start date
- Dec 18, 2022
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- Dec 18, 2022
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- Dec 18, 2022
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Typeracer updated dust devil with a new update entry:
diet flank
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diet flank
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- Dec 18, 2022
- 19
- 2
Typeracer updated dust devil with a new update entry:
to my tf2 family
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to my tf2 family
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- Dec 18, 2022
- 19
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Typeracer updated dust devil with a new update entry:
forgot to check clipping
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forgot to check clipping
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- Dec 18, 2022
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- Dec 18, 2022
- 19
- 2
- Dec 18, 2022
- 19
- 2
- Dec 18, 2022
- 19
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- Dec 18, 2022
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- Dec 18, 2022
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- Sep 10, 2016
- 532
- 399
Hello,
I've noticed that a lot of rounds on this map seem to have been one-sided.
Here are some of the factors that are likely creating that imbalance:
The easiest sign of the captime being too long in a round is when the point unlocks, but isn't captured by either team for a rather long time.
This usually means that one team has won the fight against the other at mid, but the other team was able to respawn and come back before the attackers could even capture the point - NOT good.
This map is actually pretty good at doing that! The area leading up to the point is very separated, so it's hard to camp, and the cover is mostly designed so that you have full cover right up until you have visibility of the point.
But the trouble is that only having VISIBILITY onto an area doesn't necessarily equate to actually being able to REACH that area.
So, you can get KOTH maps where it's easy to have visibility onto the point, but not easy to actually contest that visibility and capture, which lends itself to a point that's very easy to defend and not very easy to attack.
This is what's happening in this map - sort of. The defensive positions themselves are not strong, so in a normal scenario this would hardly even be a problem, but it just so happens that the defensive positions on this map can't just see the point, they can also see the enemy team's approach to the point.
Here are a few examples:
Both of these spots can clearly see both of the main routes that players use to approach the point, and kill them long before they actually reach it.
The second spot even covers the low-ground route that players use to sneak behind each other - which itself can be used by enemies to see both of your main routes!
In KOTH maps, the lobbies before the point should be areas where it takes a very short time to rotate between entrances to them, and a very short time to rotate to health - this makes it easy to attack the point area, and makes it hard for the team who owns the point to attack the lobby (and therefore gain a forward hold that would make it too hard to attack the point).
By comparison, the point area itself should have very long rotate time between entrances to it, and should have almost no health so that if you're defending the point, you have to retreat all the way back to your own lobby for health - which is, by definition, ceding the point area to the enemy team.
At first glance, this map seems to achieve these design purposes very well.
The lobby is hard to push into, the rotate times when in the point area are long, and the point area is very exposed with almost no health.
But the doors between the lobby and point being so far apart also means that the attacking team has to spend a long time rotating between them, thereby making the point harder to attack.
This may seem trivial, but it is in my opinion the single largest problem with the map.
Here's a quick diagram:
This diagram depicts the two most critical rotates for the attacking team (blue, 10 seconds | light grey, 6 seconds) and defending team (red, 5 seconds | orange, 3 seconds).
By adding them together, you can get the time to rotate from the far left route to the far right on each side, although the actual figure is much lower for the red + orange rotate, since it's a path that can be shortened drastically.
This should hopefully demonstrate how much longer the rotate times are for the attacking team compared to the defenders.
I didn't do a diagram about retreat times, because the retreat times on this map are, quite frankly, exemplary - and so nothing really needs to be changed about the health placement on this map.
Now for my horrific diagrams:
Raising the ENTIRE hill the point area is on top of would make it so that you can no longer watch the enemy team's approach to the point area without physically being on the point yourself.
You'd actually need to raise it way more than I did in this diagram!
Adding stairs up to a shack with a dropdown hole in the floor here would allow the attackers to use the dropdown as a quick rotate from this route to the other one, while remaining confident that the defenders can't use the rotate against them without being a Soldier or similar.
You could also add stairs up to a doorway into the shack here, so that the rotate in the reverse direction is also slightly faster (because you can use this doorway, and then go down the other set of stairs from the shack).
Hopefully that makes sense!
With all this in place, I think you probably wouldn't need to do anything about the low-ground route.
My analysis of this map has impressed on me the skillfulness in its design - it seems to me that you understand what's needed to make a good KOTH map, and this particular map just needs a few finishing touches.
Let me know if I said anything that you don't really understand, or that you think is totally wrong! Always happy to explain my reasoning.
Also, here's a bonus:
Adding a couple of low walls here will make gameplay around the control point more interesting at virtually no cost.
And if you're worried about raising the CP hill making defensive sentries too OP, don't - the capzone is large, so you can huddle slightly behind the hill, and these low walls will help you evade sentries while capturing.
I've noticed that a lot of rounds on this map seem to have been one-sided.
Here are some of the factors that are likely creating that imbalance:
1) The captime is too long.
In KOTH maps, a captime value of exactly 6 is suitable to make it easy for the team who doesn't own the point to capture it, while not making it totally unfair for the team who does own it - although you can go lower than 6 and it usually doesn't break the gameplay.The easiest sign of the captime being too long in a round is when the point unlocks, but isn't captured by either team for a rather long time.
This usually means that one team has won the fight against the other at mid, but the other team was able to respawn and come back before the attackers could even capture the point - NOT good.
2) The point area itself makes it difficult to reach the point alive.
Generally, in KOTH maps, I like to instruct designers in a simple principle - "keep players safe right up until they reach the point".This map is actually pretty good at doing that! The area leading up to the point is very separated, so it's hard to camp, and the cover is mostly designed so that you have full cover right up until you have visibility of the point.
But the trouble is that only having VISIBILITY onto an area doesn't necessarily equate to actually being able to REACH that area.
So, you can get KOTH maps where it's easy to have visibility onto the point, but not easy to actually contest that visibility and capture, which lends itself to a point that's very easy to defend and not very easy to attack.
This is what's happening in this map - sort of. The defensive positions themselves are not strong, so in a normal scenario this would hardly even be a problem, but it just so happens that the defensive positions on this map can't just see the point, they can also see the enemy team's approach to the point.
Here are a few examples:
Both of these spots can clearly see both of the main routes that players use to approach the point, and kill them long before they actually reach it.
The second spot even covers the low-ground route that players use to sneak behind each other - which itself can be used by enemies to see both of your main routes!
3) The rotate times are long.
The time it takes to rotate between entrances to an area, and the time it takes to retreat from health while in that area, act as measures for how easy that area is to attack or defend.In KOTH maps, the lobbies before the point should be areas where it takes a very short time to rotate between entrances to them, and a very short time to rotate to health - this makes it easy to attack the point area, and makes it hard for the team who owns the point to attack the lobby (and therefore gain a forward hold that would make it too hard to attack the point).
By comparison, the point area itself should have very long rotate time between entrances to it, and should have almost no health so that if you're defending the point, you have to retreat all the way back to your own lobby for health - which is, by definition, ceding the point area to the enemy team.
At first glance, this map seems to achieve these design purposes very well.
The lobby is hard to push into, the rotate times when in the point area are long, and the point area is very exposed with almost no health.
But the doors between the lobby and point being so far apart also means that the attacking team has to spend a long time rotating between them, thereby making the point harder to attack.
This may seem trivial, but it is in my opinion the single largest problem with the map.
Here's a quick diagram:
This diagram depicts the two most critical rotates for the attacking team (blue, 10 seconds | light grey, 6 seconds) and defending team (red, 5 seconds | orange, 3 seconds).
By adding them together, you can get the time to rotate from the far left route to the far right on each side, although the actual figure is much lower for the red + orange rotate, since it's a path that can be shortened drastically.
This should hopefully demonstrate how much longer the rotate times are for the attacking team compared to the defenders.
I didn't do a diagram about retreat times, because the retreat times on this map are, quite frankly, exemplary - and so nothing really needs to be changed about the health placement on this map.
Suggestions
First, and easiest - reduce the captime of the control point to 6.Now for my horrific diagrams:
Raising the ENTIRE hill the point area is on top of would make it so that you can no longer watch the enemy team's approach to the point area without physically being on the point yourself.
You'd actually need to raise it way more than I did in this diagram!
Adding stairs up to a shack with a dropdown hole in the floor here would allow the attackers to use the dropdown as a quick rotate from this route to the other one, while remaining confident that the defenders can't use the rotate against them without being a Soldier or similar.
You could also add stairs up to a doorway into the shack here, so that the rotate in the reverse direction is also slightly faster (because you can use this doorway, and then go down the other set of stairs from the shack).
Hopefully that makes sense!
With all this in place, I think you probably wouldn't need to do anything about the low-ground route.
Closing statement
I provide this feedback in the hope that it is helpful and not discouraging.My analysis of this map has impressed on me the skillfulness in its design - it seems to me that you understand what's needed to make a good KOTH map, and this particular map just needs a few finishing touches.
Let me know if I said anything that you don't really understand, or that you think is totally wrong! Always happy to explain my reasoning.
Also, here's a bonus:
Adding a couple of low walls here will make gameplay around the control point more interesting at virtually no cost.
And if you're worried about raising the CP hill making defensive sentries too OP, don't - the capzone is large, so you can huddle slightly behind the hill, and these low walls will help you evade sentries while capturing.
Last edited:
