[WIP] pl_vipersden
- Thread starter Termaximus
- Start date
Shadow Monkey
Super Monkey
- Jun 7, 2008
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- Jan 11, 2008
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Thanks everyone, glad you like it.
- Jan 11, 2008
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Immortal-D's Review
Below is Imortal-D's review of version b1 from the voting thread. I wanted to post it because I think it sums up nicely the problems with b1. My responses are in bold.
Vipers Den b1
Gameflow: The first few moments out of spawn start well, and that's about the only good point The 'V' shape, while good for a cap+choke point, represents like 90% of the playing area. As such, it's way too open, w/ no logical breaks in the track. Despite having only 2 caps and 2 spawns, certain areas naturally lent themselves to battle. Specifically, the cap at the tip of the 'V' was quite fun. Being able to walk along the top of the dividing wall is cool. Being able to shoot down at half the map unrestricted, not so much. The map also lacks signs, and the fact that you don't even need them is not a good thing. The basic elements of good design are here, the author just needs to take time to expand upon them. 3.5/10
The choice of a V was inspired by the theme of VipersDen, by natural choke points it creates as you mentioned, and by ease of adding new paths between the Red and Blue side as needed. I agree it is somewhat simplistic, but remember you are looking at b1 so the layout was bare bones at that point. With b2 I've pulled out the canyon walls and added other obstacles to break up the straight corridors a lot. With the more complex design I have also added more arrows. I'm glad you like the elevation difference and the tip of V area, both of which are things I've focused on to make the map somewhat unique. As for unrestricted shooting down to lower areas, I believe with changes to b2 this won't be a problem.
Balance: Despite the design issues, I found the map to be surprisingly balanced. That is, both teams had relatively equal opportunities to exploit the poor layout The side tunnel around cap 1 is large and cumbersome, but it's the right idea at least. The incredibly open layout makes the Pyro all but useless until the very final squared off area around cap 2, while snipers rain supreme. Health and ammo kits are non-existant. 2/10
Lol, as I first start reading this I'm happy by "I found the map to be surprisingly balanced" and then "both teams had relatively equal opportunities to exploit the poor layout." Well said and I can't help but agree. For b2, the side tunnel's walls have been displaced (see screens below), broken up so not just straight shots, lighting improved, and shrunk a bit. I want to keep it long, as the tunnel's point is to provide an alternate route around tip of V that is relatively safe but will take you longer to traverse. This is an area I want feedback on from b2 and will shrink it down more if needed. With the much more complex layout of b2, Pyros and Heavies for that matter, will have a use and Snipers have been nerfed considerably.
Detailing: The author made a start w/ his details. I especially like the train cars outside of Blu spawn, because I can see that being expanded to an actual train station, w/ Blu spawn as the main computer room. The rest of the map lacks any distinguishing features. I honestly can't picture what the setting is supposed to be Do a few sketches by hand, look up some pictures, and try to figure out where you want to go w/ the setting. I'm giving this a small point boost b/c he did include a few cactus's, and a curve in the track right before cap 1. 3.5/10
Detail was certainly not up to snuff in this version, but again it was b1. I'm glad you like the train cars and the train station is not a bad idea, although I was thinking that Blue spawn was an abandoned business (mining company?) that the Viper gang had taken over; hence the derelict train. The setting is sometime around 1900 in a mining town built at the edge of a canyon/mining area. I'm glad you like the cacti smartass
. Overall, b2 will have better detail, especially the displacement cliffs which I scrapped and redid.
Optimization: The map is small and runs well by virtue of not having much in it, lol. The little hut/building things are func_detailed, and he made good use of displacements. Until there's more meat, it's hard knowing to what extent the map is optimized. For now however, 10/10
Yes it runs well because I did the simple things in b2 like func_detailing and nodrawing brush faces behind displacements, and as you mentioned b/c not a lot of models. I think the V layout lends itself to good VIS blocking at the macro level, although the long corridors are clearly a problem at the intermediate level, but that has been resolved with b2. I still need to add hint brushes, set fade distance of my models, and break up VIS a bit more.
Style: Again, I can see the beginnings of a map here, but there's a lot of inconsistency. Out of Blue spawn, why would a train be lined up right next to a wooden hut? The pool of water at the 'V' crest is cool, but why is it there? It should be connected to a skybox building or natural body of water. The area around Red spawn looks like it could be a farming thing, but there's too little to know yet. As before, take some time to plan, and figure out what exactly you want to do here. 3/10
As mentioned above, Blue spawn is an abandoned mining company or something that the Viper gang (blue) has taken over, hence the out of service train. Water, even in arid areas, can pool up in canyons, especially if it is being fed by an underground source. I plan to make this a bit more evident going forward. Red area is a town, the big red building connected to spawn is the town hall and will eventually be detailed as such, the red block at the final CP is a placeholder which will eventually be the jail where some blue folks are being held, and which will be blown up at the end. I've also added a church and a gallows to further reinforce the wild west town feel.
Below is Imortal-D's review of version b1 from the voting thread. I wanted to post it because I think it sums up nicely the problems with b1. My responses are in bold.
Vipers Den b1
Gameflow: The first few moments out of spawn start well, and that's about the only good point The 'V' shape, while good for a cap+choke point, represents like 90% of the playing area. As such, it's way too open, w/ no logical breaks in the track. Despite having only 2 caps and 2 spawns, certain areas naturally lent themselves to battle. Specifically, the cap at the tip of the 'V' was quite fun. Being able to walk along the top of the dividing wall is cool. Being able to shoot down at half the map unrestricted, not so much. The map also lacks signs, and the fact that you don't even need them is not a good thing. The basic elements of good design are here, the author just needs to take time to expand upon them. 3.5/10
The choice of a V was inspired by the theme of VipersDen, by natural choke points it creates as you mentioned, and by ease of adding new paths between the Red and Blue side as needed. I agree it is somewhat simplistic, but remember you are looking at b1 so the layout was bare bones at that point. With b2 I've pulled out the canyon walls and added other obstacles to break up the straight corridors a lot. With the more complex design I have also added more arrows. I'm glad you like the elevation difference and the tip of V area, both of which are things I've focused on to make the map somewhat unique. As for unrestricted shooting down to lower areas, I believe with changes to b2 this won't be a problem.
Balance: Despite the design issues, I found the map to be surprisingly balanced. That is, both teams had relatively equal opportunities to exploit the poor layout The side tunnel around cap 1 is large and cumbersome, but it's the right idea at least. The incredibly open layout makes the Pyro all but useless until the very final squared off area around cap 2, while snipers rain supreme. Health and ammo kits are non-existant. 2/10
Lol, as I first start reading this I'm happy by "I found the map to be surprisingly balanced" and then "both teams had relatively equal opportunities to exploit the poor layout." Well said and I can't help but agree. For b2, the side tunnel's walls have been displaced (see screens below), broken up so not just straight shots, lighting improved, and shrunk a bit. I want to keep it long, as the tunnel's point is to provide an alternate route around tip of V that is relatively safe but will take you longer to traverse. This is an area I want feedback on from b2 and will shrink it down more if needed. With the much more complex layout of b2, Pyros and Heavies for that matter, will have a use and Snipers have been nerfed considerably.
Detailing: The author made a start w/ his details. I especially like the train cars outside of Blu spawn, because I can see that being expanded to an actual train station, w/ Blu spawn as the main computer room. The rest of the map lacks any distinguishing features. I honestly can't picture what the setting is supposed to be Do a few sketches by hand, look up some pictures, and try to figure out where you want to go w/ the setting. I'm giving this a small point boost b/c he did include a few cactus's, and a curve in the track right before cap 1. 3.5/10
Detail was certainly not up to snuff in this version, but again it was b1. I'm glad you like the train cars and the train station is not a bad idea, although I was thinking that Blue spawn was an abandoned business (mining company?) that the Viper gang had taken over; hence the derelict train. The setting is sometime around 1900 in a mining town built at the edge of a canyon/mining area. I'm glad you like the cacti smartass
. Overall, b2 will have better detail, especially the displacement cliffs which I scrapped and redid.Optimization: The map is small and runs well by virtue of not having much in it, lol. The little hut/building things are func_detailed, and he made good use of displacements. Until there's more meat, it's hard knowing to what extent the map is optimized. For now however, 10/10
Yes it runs well because I did the simple things in b2 like func_detailing and nodrawing brush faces behind displacements, and as you mentioned b/c not a lot of models. I think the V layout lends itself to good VIS blocking at the macro level, although the long corridors are clearly a problem at the intermediate level, but that has been resolved with b2. I still need to add hint brushes, set fade distance of my models, and break up VIS a bit more.
Style: Again, I can see the beginnings of a map here, but there's a lot of inconsistency. Out of Blue spawn, why would a train be lined up right next to a wooden hut? The pool of water at the 'V' crest is cool, but why is it there? It should be connected to a skybox building or natural body of water. The area around Red spawn looks like it could be a farming thing, but there's too little to know yet. As before, take some time to plan, and figure out what exactly you want to do here. 3/10
As mentioned above, Blue spawn is an abandoned mining company or something that the Viper gang (blue) has taken over, hence the out of service train. Water, even in arid areas, can pool up in canyons, especially if it is being fed by an underground source. I plan to make this a bit more evident going forward. Red area is a town, the big red building connected to spawn is the town hall and will eventually be detailed as such, the red block at the final CP is a placeholder which will eventually be the jail where some blue folks are being held, and which will be blown up at the end. I've also added a church and a gallows to further reinforce the wild west town feel.
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A BIG thanks to Nova Silisko and Shmitz for helping me to get the blue forward spawn working. Thank you a million times over. The moral of the story: use triggered enable/disable spawn room setup, not CP map style associated capture points.
Thanks to their help I will be able to get the vastly improved b2 out in a week or two.
Thanks to their help I will be able to get the vastly improved b2 out in a week or two.
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actually props_trainyard has a red bomb cart
edit: oh I didn't notice I was way behind the thread
edit: oh I didn't notice I was way behind the thread
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lol zaratustra. Thanks for stopping by nonetheless.
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Updates: As noted above, Blue forward spawn is in. I also have almost finished the cave walls and I think they are looking good, check out screens below.
Latest Screens:
Latest Screens:
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Youme's Review
Below is Youme's review from the payload contest voting thread. My responses are in bold.
Vipersden:-
Gameflow: Not a hard map to get lost in due to the incredibly simplistic layout, which is its biggest weakness. I've found playing this to be either an incredibly frustrating or incredibly un-stimulating fight. On offence it was an epic struggle to push the cart even slightly around the first bend and on defence it was quite an unimpressive spamfest beating the opposition pretty much as soon as they got out of the spawn. Any of the slower classes really struggle to get to the cart after the first bend due to the extreme sightlines and height. If the offensive team could break through the first side they found the roles swapped, they were able to rain down death on the other team with ease. The ground was also incredibly bump and it was tricky to see what areas you would be able to run over and what areas you wouldn't. 3
With b2 the layout has been vastly improved by pulling out the cliff walls and adding obstacles to break up long straight ares. I've been doing private playtests with my clan and have drastically nerfed the Snipers point of view, which in turn helps the slower classes. I've broken up first corridor from blue spawn and I think it is much more balanced as a result. Another CP has been added at the top of the hill once you pass the barn at the bend and for Red I've added an exit from the two story building at the edge of cliff that will give them a height advantage to defend this CP. The barn at the bend's roof is now accessible coming from blue side to most classes with a little crouch jumping, to prevent Red from getting too entrenched here. The elevation advantage has also been nerfed a bit with the addition of more cover and alternative routes. I have smoothed out bumpiness so this should not be a problem. Of course it will take some extended play testing of b2 with at least 8 v 8 to see if balance is in the acceptable range.
Balance: Quite poor balance here for classes, any class that is slow has major trouble escaping those faster or with longer range and the vast size meant engies struggled to place effective sentry guns. Snipers and scouts were able to exploit the high middle ridge effectively whilst heavies and pyros due to their speed and range respectively suffered heavily. Each team though had roughly equal opportunities to exploit the landscape but the initial struggle for blue demoralised them enough for them to barely make it to the middle point. 6
I think with changes in b2 mentioned above the range classes have been nerfed, the pyros and heavies now have more ambush opportunities, and the engies have more prime build zones.
Detailing: Quite a lack of detail here, admittedly it’s early in development but frankly I don't really see the potential for good detail in it. The map is over scaled, probably by about 100% which will make it near impossible to populate it with realistic looking details and even more so do fully detail it and keep framerate respectable. No cubemaps either for reflections. 5
Yes it is early and I had not focused on micro detail in b1, this has been done more in b2. As for scale, Big Rexy mentioned this and I took measures to correct this:
Also, with the more complex layout and addition of more obstacles I think the scale is not such problem anymore. We will see how the feedback goes in b2 and if needed I will continue to scale things down. As for cubemaps, I uploaded the wrong version without them built. Rookie mistake.
Optimization: Not really much to go on here since there is very little detail so framerates are good as is filesize however I can easily see framerates dropping hugely once a valve level of detail is put into it as-is. The massive sightlines won't lend themselves well to further detailing. 6
Part of my layout changes mentioned above have focused on VIS blocking in these long corridors. I am also setting fade distance of models as I implement them and will be putting in hint brushes. So far, framerate has remained good although I have not done a full series of optimization testing and correcting yet.
Style: I can't see a consistent style here since there isn't much development of the basic shapes. It basically fits what valve have done but with further detailing it could go either way. The simple V-shape to the map is a good and simple layout. There isn't any differentiation between red and blue themed architecture, they're both the same wooden structures. 5
The theme is a WIP for sure. The basic idea is that this is a wild west (U.S.) town around 1900 built against the edge of a canyon/mining area. The Blue spawn is an abandoned mining company where the Vipers(blue) hide out, hence the derelict train. The Red area is a town and I've added a church and gallows, and begun to detail other red buildings to reinforce this. The red block by the final CP will be a jail where blue folks are being held and will be blown up at end, and the red spawn will be detailed as a town hall eventually.
Below is Youme's review from the payload contest voting thread. My responses are in bold.
Vipersden:-
Gameflow: Not a hard map to get lost in due to the incredibly simplistic layout, which is its biggest weakness. I've found playing this to be either an incredibly frustrating or incredibly un-stimulating fight. On offence it was an epic struggle to push the cart even slightly around the first bend and on defence it was quite an unimpressive spamfest beating the opposition pretty much as soon as they got out of the spawn. Any of the slower classes really struggle to get to the cart after the first bend due to the extreme sightlines and height. If the offensive team could break through the first side they found the roles swapped, they were able to rain down death on the other team with ease. The ground was also incredibly bump and it was tricky to see what areas you would be able to run over and what areas you wouldn't. 3
With b2 the layout has been vastly improved by pulling out the cliff walls and adding obstacles to break up long straight ares. I've been doing private playtests with my clan and have drastically nerfed the Snipers point of view, which in turn helps the slower classes. I've broken up first corridor from blue spawn and I think it is much more balanced as a result. Another CP has been added at the top of the hill once you pass the barn at the bend and for Red I've added an exit from the two story building at the edge of cliff that will give them a height advantage to defend this CP. The barn at the bend's roof is now accessible coming from blue side to most classes with a little crouch jumping, to prevent Red from getting too entrenched here. The elevation advantage has also been nerfed a bit with the addition of more cover and alternative routes. I have smoothed out bumpiness so this should not be a problem. Of course it will take some extended play testing of b2 with at least 8 v 8 to see if balance is in the acceptable range.
Balance: Quite poor balance here for classes, any class that is slow has major trouble escaping those faster or with longer range and the vast size meant engies struggled to place effective sentry guns. Snipers and scouts were able to exploit the high middle ridge effectively whilst heavies and pyros due to their speed and range respectively suffered heavily. Each team though had roughly equal opportunities to exploit the landscape but the initial struggle for blue demoralised them enough for them to barely make it to the middle point. 6
I think with changes in b2 mentioned above the range classes have been nerfed, the pyros and heavies now have more ambush opportunities, and the engies have more prime build zones.
Detailing: Quite a lack of detail here, admittedly it’s early in development but frankly I don't really see the potential for good detail in it. The map is over scaled, probably by about 100% which will make it near impossible to populate it with realistic looking details and even more so do fully detail it and keep framerate respectable. No cubemaps either for reflections. 5
Yes it is early and I had not focused on micro detail in b1, this has been done more in b2. As for scale, Big Rexy mentioned this and I took measures to correct this:
Also, with the more complex layout and addition of more obstacles I think the scale is not such problem anymore. We will see how the feedback goes in b2 and if needed I will continue to scale things down. As for cubemaps, I uploaded the wrong version without them built. Rookie mistake.
Optimization: Not really much to go on here since there is very little detail so framerates are good as is filesize however I can easily see framerates dropping hugely once a valve level of detail is put into it as-is. The massive sightlines won't lend themselves well to further detailing. 6
Part of my layout changes mentioned above have focused on VIS blocking in these long corridors. I am also setting fade distance of models as I implement them and will be putting in hint brushes. So far, framerate has remained good although I have not done a full series of optimization testing and correcting yet.
Style: I can't see a consistent style here since there isn't much development of the basic shapes. It basically fits what valve have done but with further detailing it could go either way. The simple V-shape to the map is a good and simple layout. There isn't any differentiation between red and blue themed architecture, they're both the same wooden structures. 5
The theme is a WIP for sure. The basic idea is that this is a wild west (U.S.) town around 1900 built against the edge of a canyon/mining area. The Blue spawn is an abandoned mining company where the Vipers(blue) hide out, hence the derelict train. The Red area is a town and I've added a church and gallows, and begun to detail other red buildings to reinforce this. The red block by the final CP will be a jail where blue folks are being held and will be blown up at end, and the red spawn will be detailed as a town hall eventually.
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Shmitz's Review
Below is Shmitz's review from the payload voting contest thread. This is # 3 in my series of responses to the contest judges reviews. My responses are in bold.
Viper's Den
Gameflow: Though I've criticized some of the other maps for being a bit too large for a single-stage PL map, Viper's Den is just too large for anything. The entire map needs to be selected and scaled down at least 50%. As such, it takes far too long to get anywhere, and given how open the map is, chances are high players will be sniped before ever reaching their destination. If scaled down, the layout would be excellent for a single stage of a 3-stage map. 2
I agree the scale is just off in version b1. Big Rexy brought this to my attention in his review and I have taken steps to fix this, namely reducing height of cliff walls from 1024 to 512 (see image above in my response to Youme). Also with the addition of more stuff in the empty spaces, the scale seems much improved. As for travel time, I have added another CP to track, at top of hill just after blue round bend with the barn, added a forward spawn for blue (which you kindly helped me with over steam chat, thanks), and added additional routes to get up from blue side to red side and vice versa.
Balance: It's difficult to say which team is hurt most by the layout and size, so it'd be fair to call the sides balanced. The classes on the other hand, have a lot of trouble. Snipers dominate just about every other class with possibly the exception of scouts. Even the enclosed spaces are so large that pyros and other close range classes suffer considerably. 3
On class balance, with b2 I have pulled out canyon walls and added buildings and other obstacles to nerf Snipers and significantly help classes like Heavies and Pyros. Spies should have more fun with the additional routes I've provided. As for team balance, I have done 3 private play test iterations with my clan and team balance has been the focus. I think I have moved the map into the acceptable range for this, but only the more extensive playing of b2 will tell me for sure.
Detailing: The detail is reasonable in some areas of the map. The buildings in particular have a decent start, and some of the displacement work is above average. Unfortunately, because of how large the map is, what detailing there is feels vastly insufficient and incomplete. 3
Yes detailing was not a key focus in b1. I have done a good bit since then, but final polishing is a few versions away. The buildings are skeletons and will be much improved down the road, although a 75% detailed church and start of a gallows will make an appearance in the Red town in b2. I'm glad you think my displacement work is above average, considering I've just learned the technique with this map. Check out my first attempt a couple months ago, before I read Youme's guide:
Optimization: Though framerates were high, that is probably entirely attributable to the fact that details were so low. There were several places in the map where the game was rendering the entire thing, and few places where it wasn't rendering at least half of the map. 1
I did think large scale optimization with the V layout, which naturally blocks VIS between the Red and Blue Side. I do out of habit func_detail any complex, small, non VIS blocking, etc brushes. I also liberally apply nodraw anywhere and everywhere that I can. I am setting fade distance of models as I implement them and have begun taking steps to break up VIS on each side (one technique has been to pull out cliff walls and hide large nodraw brushes inside of them). I have not done too much hint brushing or lightmap scaling yet, but will. The three private play test iterations I've done with my clan have not shown any performance issues even with the model, etc additions since b1.
Style: The desert theme is, fortunately, not difficult to pull off with the assets provided by Valve. If there is any saving grace to this map, it's the desert-canyon style displacements in certain place. They even look better than warpath's environment. Granted, that's not hard to do, but it does indicate that there is some promise for the future of this map if the author is willing to make very big changes to its size and structure. 4
I think I my responses above cover this and I'm humbled that you think my displacements are even above average. Thanks again for the help with the forward spawn.
Below is Shmitz's review from the payload voting contest thread. This is # 3 in my series of responses to the contest judges reviews. My responses are in bold.
Viper's Den
Gameflow: Though I've criticized some of the other maps for being a bit too large for a single-stage PL map, Viper's Den is just too large for anything. The entire map needs to be selected and scaled down at least 50%. As such, it takes far too long to get anywhere, and given how open the map is, chances are high players will be sniped before ever reaching their destination. If scaled down, the layout would be excellent for a single stage of a 3-stage map. 2
I agree the scale is just off in version b1. Big Rexy brought this to my attention in his review and I have taken steps to fix this, namely reducing height of cliff walls from 1024 to 512 (see image above in my response to Youme). Also with the addition of more stuff in the empty spaces, the scale seems much improved. As for travel time, I have added another CP to track, at top of hill just after blue round bend with the barn, added a forward spawn for blue (which you kindly helped me with over steam chat, thanks), and added additional routes to get up from blue side to red side and vice versa.
Balance: It's difficult to say which team is hurt most by the layout and size, so it'd be fair to call the sides balanced. The classes on the other hand, have a lot of trouble. Snipers dominate just about every other class with possibly the exception of scouts. Even the enclosed spaces are so large that pyros and other close range classes suffer considerably. 3
On class balance, with b2 I have pulled out canyon walls and added buildings and other obstacles to nerf Snipers and significantly help classes like Heavies and Pyros. Spies should have more fun with the additional routes I've provided. As for team balance, I have done 3 private play test iterations with my clan and team balance has been the focus. I think I have moved the map into the acceptable range for this, but only the more extensive playing of b2 will tell me for sure.
Detailing: The detail is reasonable in some areas of the map. The buildings in particular have a decent start, and some of the displacement work is above average. Unfortunately, because of how large the map is, what detailing there is feels vastly insufficient and incomplete. 3
Yes detailing was not a key focus in b1. I have done a good bit since then, but final polishing is a few versions away. The buildings are skeletons and will be much improved down the road, although a 75% detailed church and start of a gallows will make an appearance in the Red town in b2. I'm glad you think my displacement work is above average, considering I've just learned the technique with this map. Check out my first attempt a couple months ago, before I read Youme's guide:
Optimization: Though framerates were high, that is probably entirely attributable to the fact that details were so low. There were several places in the map where the game was rendering the entire thing, and few places where it wasn't rendering at least half of the map. 1
I did think large scale optimization with the V layout, which naturally blocks VIS between the Red and Blue Side. I do out of habit func_detail any complex, small, non VIS blocking, etc brushes. I also liberally apply nodraw anywhere and everywhere that I can. I am setting fade distance of models as I implement them and have begun taking steps to break up VIS on each side (one technique has been to pull out cliff walls and hide large nodraw brushes inside of them). I have not done too much hint brushing or lightmap scaling yet, but will. The three private play test iterations I've done with my clan have not shown any performance issues even with the model, etc additions since b1.
Style: The desert theme is, fortunately, not difficult to pull off with the assets provided by Valve. If there is any saving grace to this map, it's the desert-canyon style displacements in certain place. They even look better than warpath's environment. Granted, that's not hard to do, but it does indicate that there is some promise for the future of this map if the author is willing to make very big changes to its size and structure. 4
I think I my responses above cover this and I'm humbled that you think my displacements are even above average. Thanks again for the help with the forward spawn.
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MangyCarface Contest Review
Below is MangyCarface's review from the payload contest voting thread. This is #4 in my series of responses to the judges. My responses are in bold.
VipersDen
Gameflow: Excellent in the sense that there's more or less only one way to go. Sightlines huge. Symmetry wasted as the gameplay is unidirectional. Without some degree of complexity, player choices are incredibly minimal. 2
I do tend to stick with symmetrical maps, at least with fundamental layout. I agree b1 was far too simplistic and honestly boring. I have broken up long corridors and also have added a number of new routes to get from the lower blue side to the red side, and vice versa. This has made playing all classes more fun,except for Snipers who have lost a lot of their massive field of view.
Balance: Not much to comment on teamplay wise, except that RED cannot win due to a lack of a round finished output. Snipers and soldiers benefit greatly from the large sightlines; spies a bit shafted. 2
New in b2, Red can win! Lol. I am very embarrassed about this rookie mistake and it was fixed. I have done a number of private play test iterations since b1 with my clan and gameplay has been the focus. I think it is much much improved. Range classes have been nerfed, heavies and pyros given a lot more ambush areas, and spies should enjoy the new routes.
Detailing: The outlines of potential. Break your displacements up into more brushes to get a more consistent texturing when stretching them. All I can say is keep up what you're doing and refine what you've got. 2
Thanks, one of my goals of this map was to learn displacements and I am really refining my technique after a lot of fits and starts. I actually completely scrapped 99% of my b1 displacements because I had been so sloppy. Since then I have stuck to multiples of 128, with my largest sections being 512 by 512 and my cave openings at 256 so they sew nicely.
Optimization: Only good because of a lack of detail. Planning and optimization work not evident. 4
Actually I am quite the student of optimization. I func_detail with zeal, nodraw with passion, and think about VIS blocking a lot. The V layout lends itself well to large scale VIS blocking of the two sides, although I agree that I had not done much at the mid level on the respective sides. In b2 I have pulled out canyon walls and hidden large nodraw brushes to break up the giant blue side corridor. I have also been setting fade distance of models as I implement them. I still need to scale lightmaps and put in hint brushes, but the private play test versions I've tested with clan since b1 have not shown any real drop in performance since b1.
Style: I've got an idea of what you're trying to pull off, but there's simply a lack of detail work to support it. 2
In a nutshell, the time is 1900 or so American west. The blue side is a canyon/mining area with the blue spawn being an abandoned mining company (hence the derelict train), which the Vipers (blue) have taken over. The red side is a wild west town and I have added a church and gallows to reinforce this feel. With the final micro-detailing down the road this will really be evident. The red block by the final CP will be a jail, holding some Viper gang members hostage, which will be blown up at the end.
Again a map that with a bunch of improvement could do pretty well.
I really do appreciate the words of encouragement and I hope you are much impressed with b2's improvements.
Below is MangyCarface's review from the payload contest voting thread. This is #4 in my series of responses to the judges. My responses are in bold.
VipersDen
Gameflow: Excellent in the sense that there's more or less only one way to go. Sightlines huge. Symmetry wasted as the gameplay is unidirectional. Without some degree of complexity, player choices are incredibly minimal. 2
I do tend to stick with symmetrical maps, at least with fundamental layout. I agree b1 was far too simplistic and honestly boring. I have broken up long corridors and also have added a number of new routes to get from the lower blue side to the red side, and vice versa. This has made playing all classes more fun,except for Snipers who have lost a lot of their massive field of view.
Balance: Not much to comment on teamplay wise, except that RED cannot win due to a lack of a round finished output. Snipers and soldiers benefit greatly from the large sightlines; spies a bit shafted. 2
New in b2, Red can win! Lol. I am very embarrassed about this rookie mistake and it was fixed. I have done a number of private play test iterations since b1 with my clan and gameplay has been the focus. I think it is much much improved. Range classes have been nerfed, heavies and pyros given a lot more ambush areas, and spies should enjoy the new routes.
Detailing: The outlines of potential. Break your displacements up into more brushes to get a more consistent texturing when stretching them. All I can say is keep up what you're doing and refine what you've got. 2
Thanks, one of my goals of this map was to learn displacements and I am really refining my technique after a lot of fits and starts. I actually completely scrapped 99% of my b1 displacements because I had been so sloppy. Since then I have stuck to multiples of 128, with my largest sections being 512 by 512 and my cave openings at 256 so they sew nicely.
Optimization: Only good because of a lack of detail. Planning and optimization work not evident. 4
Actually I am quite the student of optimization. I func_detail with zeal, nodraw with passion, and think about VIS blocking a lot. The V layout lends itself well to large scale VIS blocking of the two sides, although I agree that I had not done much at the mid level on the respective sides. In b2 I have pulled out canyon walls and hidden large nodraw brushes to break up the giant blue side corridor. I have also been setting fade distance of models as I implement them. I still need to scale lightmaps and put in hint brushes, but the private play test versions I've tested with clan since b1 have not shown any real drop in performance since b1.
Style: I've got an idea of what you're trying to pull off, but there's simply a lack of detail work to support it. 2
In a nutshell, the time is 1900 or so American west. The blue side is a canyon/mining area with the blue spawn being an abandoned mining company (hence the derelict train), which the Vipers (blue) have taken over. The red side is a wild west town and I have added a church and gallows to reinforce this feel. With the final micro-detailing down the road this will really be evident. The red block by the final CP will be a jail, holding some Viper gang members hostage, which will be blown up at the end.
Again a map that with a bunch of improvement could do pretty well.
I really do appreciate the words of encouragement and I hope you are much impressed with b2's improvements.
- Jan 11, 2008
- 229
- 32
Finishing up final touches for version b2.
Update:
We are working hard to finish up a few final things before the release of pl_vipersden_b2 this coming weekend. We decided to rent a cheap private server to better control play testing and had a successful day of it yesterday. We were able to get it up to 6 vs 6. The map ran great and everyone said they were getting good fps. The balance was surprisingly good, with Blue being slightly advantaged, although it was a struggle getting to final CP and Red did win about 30-40 % of time. Most importantly, everyone said the map was fun.
Jive Turkey is busy doing some polishing for the next few days. Our collaboration is really working. I do the broad stroke work and he focuses on the detail, which he is much better at than I. He is also churning out some great models, including the jaill for the final explosion (see screens below). Jive will give the vmf back to me on Wednesday and I will make a few additions, do a final compile, test, and then release by Friday hopefully. The map is far from where it was at b1 (contest map), but we are probably only about 65% to where we want to be with it at the end.
Latest Screenshots:
Update:
We are working hard to finish up a few final things before the release of pl_vipersden_b2 this coming weekend. We decided to rent a cheap private server to better control play testing and had a successful day of it yesterday. We were able to get it up to 6 vs 6. The map ran great and everyone said they were getting good fps. The balance was surprisingly good, with Blue being slightly advantaged, although it was a struggle getting to final CP and Red did win about 30-40 % of time. Most importantly, everyone said the map was fun.
Jive Turkey is busy doing some polishing for the next few days. Our collaboration is really working. I do the broad stroke work and he focuses on the detail, which he is much better at than I. He is also churning out some great models, including the jaill for the final explosion (see screens below). Jive will give the vmf back to me on Wednesday and I will make a few additions, do a final compile, test, and then release by Friday hopefully. The map is far from where it was at b1 (contest map), but we are probably only about 65% to where we want to be with it at the end.
Latest Screenshots:
- Jan 11, 2008
- 229
- 32
VipersDen Fly Through Video
A fly through of the map as it was a few days ago. Jive Turkey has made some changes, but this is basically how it will be in b2.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZiE_U7HEik"]VipersDen Fly Through[/ame]
A fly through of the map as it was a few days ago. Jive Turkey has made some changes, but this is basically how it will be in b2.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZiE_U7HEik"]VipersDen Fly Through[/ame]
- Jan 11, 2008
- 229
- 32
My co-mapper has tightened this area up a good bit and I think you'll like what you'll see in b2.
- Jan 11, 2008
- 229
- 32
1 day to pl_VipersDen_b2 Release! New Videos.
We are one day away from releasing b2. We had a playtest last night on our private server and the Red/Blue balance is close to being in the acceptable range. Really hard to tell this though without extended play and feedback. We shall see after b2 goes public. FPS are still high despite a good bit more detail. Class balance seems very good. Most importantly, I think and those who tested think that the map is a lot of fun. I really think you guys are going to be blow away on how far we've come since the infamous b1.
New Videos:
I invite everyone to subscribe to the new func_adelic YouTube Channel. Below are some new videos.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbWyHLRqCBE"]Payload Setup Animation[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHwOiMxh2-o"]Blue Spawn Sniper Nest and Dropping Stairs[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcT4EGZ7eqw"]Final Explosion[/ame]
We are one day away from releasing b2. We had a playtest last night on our private server and the Red/Blue balance is close to being in the acceptable range. Really hard to tell this though without extended play and feedback. We shall see after b2 goes public. FPS are still high despite a good bit more detail. Class balance seems very good. Most importantly, I think and those who tested think that the map is a lot of fun. I really think you guys are going to be blow away on how far we've come since the infamous b1.
New Videos:
I invite everyone to subscribe to the new func_adelic YouTube Channel. Below are some new videos.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbWyHLRqCBE"]Payload Setup Animation[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHwOiMxh2-o"]Blue Spawn Sniper Nest and Dropping Stairs[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcT4EGZ7eqw"]Final Explosion[/ame]
Shadow Monkey
Super Monkey
- Jun 7, 2008
- 244
- 23
Wow!
I like the animations....you are awesome!
I like the animations....you are awesome!