ardysqrrl
L4: Comfortable Member
- Oct 26, 2009
- 173
- 159
what
TF2Maps.net Major Contest #9 - Mann vs Machine - Voting
- Thread starter Seba
- Start date
- Status
Queue
L1: Registered
- Jun 8, 2010
- 4
- 11
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If you ever have problems testing any maps ever, please stop by the Café (irc.veekun.com #cafe) and bug us. We used to run maptests every Tuesday, and most of us are willing to play TF2 long enough to at least get a rough testing in.
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The Café ran each one of these contest maps at least 3 times, some maps (like plateau and maelstrom) were played upward of 5 times (mainly because they were the only ones that functionally worked). We did not stop until we had beaten the map, or sustained 3+ losses on a single wave. (Funfact: we had to reset the bomb 3 times to complete the first 20 minute wave of sludge, this is not fun.) Not only were we able to collect 6 players for every test, we had one or two spectators even, waiting their turn to get in.
It's a bit early to be offering up the Café server for true official maptesting; at one time I had a map-uploader and automatic maptesting days setup, this is being rewritten/worked. It's hard to think that you cannot find people out there willing to test your MvM map, though, especially in a community as large as this. But even if it is really is that hard - then please come by the Café and ask for some help. While we don't play TF2 as much as we once did, we really still get ego-boners telling other people their maps suck.
But back to the maps:
Maps|G & B|Waves|Aesthetics|Technical
Atomgrad|1|1|3|2|
Destruct|4|4|5|5|
Isolation|7|10|8|5|
Maelstrom|10|6|10|10|
Sludge|5|4|8|3|
Plateau|8|7|4|5|
Ventus|3|5|9|5|
Notes on scores:
Atomgrad: just an unfinished map, lighting is funky, pathing is funky, clipping is funky.
Destruct: LETS DECAL EVERY FREE SPOT POSSIBLE. This is the only map I've ever thought that there was "too much" overlay/decal
Isolation: Fun map, broken paths. Fuck the giant quick fix medics (but also it's why I rated waves so high, they are more terrifying than a tank).
Maelstrom: My pick of the litter. If it wasn't for a bot getting stuck every time we played, and the slight insanity of wave 4 this would be an A+ pick. I am putting this one on rotation.
Sludge: Looks dull, has weird shadows in the beginning, and we had to reset the bomb a bunch of times to stand a chance.
Plateau: Looks boring, plays decent enough. One of the few maps we replayed just because you could prepare for the bots as expected.
Ventus: Looks great but doesn't work right, and there is just zero cover when the bots take the (broken) quick route. Even with 4 engineers we could only get to wave 6 before giving up.
A lot of these maps look "done" and would be good enough if it wasn't for the main meat and potatoes of it all - the paths the bots take. In most maps they just completely ignored the routes, and what makes this even more annoying/worse, is in some maps you can tell this within seconds of playtesting wave #1.
This makes it really hard to comment on any of the map outside of "yes texture are aligned, yes it looks pretty, yes this is clipped off well", because of just how intertwined the missions are tied to the core MvM experience. Maps like ventus or isolation looked pretty rad, and I'm a sucker for the alpine textures of maelstrom, but in the first two - paths were broken, and in the latter we had a bot get stuck every time we ran the map, needing admins to slay them to continue on (and thus losing hundreds of mannbucks in the process).
It feels like once the map was structurally sound, there wasn't any real playtesting (outside of one person joining and seeing that yes, bots spawn). All of the words I would say about the maps have been said by Ardy above, but it seems like all the maps need to go through and make sure their nav_avoids are actually working, or in some cases, perhaps have a week of popfile generation to see if we can actually get some decent wave structure - a lot of the waves seemed crushingly hard one moment, then the next wave was a walk in the park.
BUGS:
isolation:
ventus
sludge
plateau
maelstrom
atomgrad
destruct
note: I feel bad pointing all this out, but I'd like to say thank you for making new MvM maps, even if they aren't "done" yet, these are some maps in this list I would happily add to our rotation, and even more if these bugs get fixed/addressed. MvM seems to thrive off having new maps and I realize these are a pain the ass to make, for many of the reasons I posted above. The Café is always happy to help someone test their MvM map, because we have a few people that still haven't gotten completely bored with the gamemode.
If you ever have problems testing any maps ever, please stop by the Café (irc.veekun.com #cafe) and bug us. We used to run maptests every Tuesday, and most of us are willing to play TF2 long enough to at least get a rough testing in.
ADVERTISEMENT
The Café ran each one of these contest maps at least 3 times, some maps (like plateau and maelstrom) were played upward of 5 times (mainly because they were the only ones that functionally worked). We did not stop until we had beaten the map, or sustained 3+ losses on a single wave. (Funfact: we had to reset the bomb 3 times to complete the first 20 minute wave of sludge, this is not fun.) Not only were we able to collect 6 players for every test, we had one or two spectators even, waiting their turn to get in.
It's a bit early to be offering up the Café server for true official maptesting; at one time I had a map-uploader and automatic maptesting days setup, this is being rewritten/worked. It's hard to think that you cannot find people out there willing to test your MvM map, though, especially in a community as large as this. But even if it is really is that hard - then please come by the Café and ask for some help. While we don't play TF2 as much as we once did, we really still get ego-boners telling other people their maps suck.
But back to the maps:
Atomgrad|1|1|3|2|
Destruct|4|4|5|5|
Isolation|7|10|8|5|
Maelstrom|10|6|10|10|
Sludge|5|4|8|3|
Plateau|8|7|4|5|
Ventus|3|5|9|5|
Notes on scores:
Atomgrad: just an unfinished map, lighting is funky, pathing is funky, clipping is funky.
Destruct: LETS DECAL EVERY FREE SPOT POSSIBLE. This is the only map I've ever thought that there was "too much" overlay/decal
Isolation: Fun map, broken paths. Fuck the giant quick fix medics (but also it's why I rated waves so high, they are more terrifying than a tank).
Maelstrom: My pick of the litter. If it wasn't for a bot getting stuck every time we played, and the slight insanity of wave 4 this would be an A+ pick. I am putting this one on rotation.
Sludge: Looks dull, has weird shadows in the beginning, and we had to reset the bomb a bunch of times to stand a chance.
Plateau: Looks boring, plays decent enough. One of the few maps we replayed just because you could prepare for the bots as expected.
Ventus: Looks great but doesn't work right, and there is just zero cover when the bots take the (broken) quick route. Even with 4 engineers we could only get to wave 6 before giving up.
A lot of these maps look "done" and would be good enough if it wasn't for the main meat and potatoes of it all - the paths the bots take. In most maps they just completely ignored the routes, and what makes this even more annoying/worse, is in some maps you can tell this within seconds of playtesting wave #1.
This makes it really hard to comment on any of the map outside of "yes texture are aligned, yes it looks pretty, yes this is clipped off well", because of just how intertwined the missions are tied to the core MvM experience. Maps like ventus or isolation looked pretty rad, and I'm a sucker for the alpine textures of maelstrom, but in the first two - paths were broken, and in the latter we had a bot get stuck every time we ran the map, needing admins to slay them to continue on (and thus losing hundreds of mannbucks in the process).
It feels like once the map was structurally sound, there wasn't any real playtesting (outside of one person joining and seeing that yes, bots spawn). All of the words I would say about the maps have been said by Ardy above, but it seems like all the maps need to go through and make sure their nav_avoids are actually working, or in some cases, perhaps have a week of popfile generation to see if we can actually get some decent wave structure - a lot of the waves seemed crushingly hard one moment, then the next wave was a walk in the park.
BUGS:
isolation:
- Paths don't work.
- Front upgrades shop remains active during first wave.
- We were intentionally trying to glitch it, but we managed to get a bot stuck in the forward Upgrades room.
ventus
- Paths don't work.
sludge
- There is something weird happening at the very front of the map, where the bots spawn. Lots of strange shadows. It looks like something is flying overhead or the ground is forgetting how to handle light.
plateau
- Holograms disappear sometimes, but I cannot repro this consistently - or I do not remember the steps right now.
maelstrom
- Lots of "Robot stuck in worlspawn" (or something similar) gets spammed to console.
- Every time we've played this map we've had to /slay a stuck robot - costing us precious duckets.
- Possibly related to above stuck robot, on one wave we sat as it spawned a good 15+ minutes of support, waiting for the last 24 (or so) demos to spawn.
atomgrad
- Bot pathing is broken, they just run as the crow flies 90% of the time.
- There is a shack you can build to the left of the robot spawn area. You can put a building in here and get players stuck.
destruct
- Engineers can build on the first roof to the right of bot spawn (if looking out from the bot spawn area). This makes engineers immune to anything except soldiers.
note: I feel bad pointing all this out, but I'd like to say thank you for making new MvM maps, even if they aren't "done" yet, these are some maps in this list I would happily add to our rotation, and even more if these bugs get fixed/addressed. MvM seems to thrive off having new maps and I realize these are a pain the ass to make, for many of the reasons I posted above. The Café is always happy to help someone test their MvM map, because we have a few people that still haven't gotten completely bored with the gamemode.
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Queue
L1: Registered
- Jun 8, 2010
- 4
- 11
Hi, are you in the Café? The only Penguin we had thankfully left some months back, so we don't have to deal with any of his bullshit gimmick maps.
Atomgrad|3|6|7|2|
Destruct|4|5|8|8|
Isolation|9|8|7|9|
Maelstrom|-|-|10|-|
Sludge|8|10|9|4|
Plateau|8|-|8|7|
Ventus|5|7|9|9|
Some data is incomplete due to very little help from the contest server site.
Here was the usual lineup whenever I visited the site:
5 servers running Decoy/Bigrock/Mannworks/Coaltown.
1 server running Atomgrad with no players on it.
Thus, getting full data on the maps was nearly impossible.
Sludge- Great map design, with a few quirks. The building routes are WAY too narrow, and the water area on the far right makes no sense. There is also WAY, WAY, WAAAY too much cash. Other than that, a great map. Also has the best incorporation of the foward upgrades (not counting untested Mealstrom).
Plateau- A solid map, but being perfectly symmetric makes the gameplay extremely linear. Didn't get to see all the waves, but they appear to be balanced.
Ventus- A very short map with bad respawn and hatch design. Looks very nice though.
Isolation- A very disorganized and barren bot spawn area hides a very well crafted map. Solid waves, solid gameplay. Needs a TON more pickups, though.
Atomgrad- Where do I start with this? Buggy, disorganized, and uninteresting. The end zone holds promise with a unique hatch, but the player spawn, warehouse, and bot spawn being deprived of player flow wrecks it. Good idea, poor execution. Also has worst incorporation or the forward upgrades (too far to really be a forward upgrades).
Destruct- This map is very well polished, but the routes are contrived and uninteresting. The bot spawn being so wide is terribly confusing. There is no way to tell which hole the bots will come out of. The beggining of the bots lanes are more straightforward than Coaltown's, but without the clearcut flow. However, the map does really shine at one area- the hatch. Solid hie height variation and flow shows the map's true potential.
Maelstorm- No server ran this map without being either empty or full. Shame, though, it looks really good. Nice ledge placement and clear routes show potential, but I wouldn't know.
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Atomgrad|3|4|6|3|
Destruct|5|4|8|8|
Isolation|6|8|7|5|
Maelstrom|6|6|7|8|
Sludge|9|9|10|9|
Plateau|6|5|5|7|
Ventus|6|7|8|7|
I'm not a judge, but I wanted to say a few things specifically about each map anyway.
Atomgrad:
The dark areas were quite dark, and the light areas were really bright. The map is a bit overscaled near the middle and end bits, and there is a big lack of cover in the middle room. Large areas in general aren't fun, and this map is no exception.
Destruct:
The winding path at the start was neat for the pyro stages cause it forced you to stay ahead of them to be safe - which was interesting. But then the soldier levels (nearly every level) made it a complete death area to go in there. It was more tactical to wait them out and then attack when they turn the corner into the mine. The detail on the map was really well done, by the way.
Isolation:
The waves felt a bit bland after a while with all the easy-to-kill melee pyros. They only killed me when I wasn't looking at them, which means you could have easily replaced them with a quarter as many spies and would still have the same effect. Maybe a bit harder to kill class like melee-medics might be more fun.
Maelstrom:
The beginning waves were really hard, and then the end waves were really easy. Nice details in general, and everything seemed to work as it should. The tanks didn't have far to go when they arrived and you really had to focus your time wisely when they appeared, but then for the rest of those stages there wasn't much challenge to it. I can't recall the stage number but I enjoyed the 20 demomen appearing all of a sudden and the hail of loch-n-load pipes streaming past my hidey-hole.
Sludge:
The start wave could use one less medic per large heavy cause it took us 6 tries just to take them down. The rest of the waves were lots of fun, especially the fast tanks. Lots of close calls, a neat variety of paths, a good increase in difficulty, and interesting details. (Just overall very good).
Plateau:
Kinda neat paths, but the scouts and pyros were pretty difficult to manage when they could drop down from anywhere near the end. Personally I've seen enough of the texture scheme that I'm not terribly fond of it, but everyone else generally seemed to like it.
Ventus:
The custom assets were neat, and the map was detailed in the right places. I liked the location of the forward shop cause you actually had to buy the jump boost if you wanted to easily get back up if you lost the zone to the bots. (Is good thing, imo). I was going to rate this higher, but as someone pointed out in-game, the left side of the map with the docks was hardly used at all by the bots nor by us. They also pointed out that the middle area was really open, and I agree, but it seemed to work out okay anyway.
Congrats to you all who finished your MvM maps. I don't have the patience for MvM maps, but I do enjoy playing it, so thanks.
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Atomgrad|3|4|5|5|
Destruct|5|3|7|5|
Isolation|8|10|8|7|
Maelstrom|6|8|5|6|
Sludge|10|8|9|6|
Plateau|4|3|3|5|
Ventus|5|5|10|5|
(I can't give any map the 10 in the technical category, sorry)
Atomgrad
Map wasn't fun overall.
It was a bit overscaled and missed cover in all areas. The waves were also very annoying, some waves just had hitscan and some just had projectiles (at least it felt like that).
There where many dark spots, and also many sports that were never used (like the right part of the bot drop area).
The healthkit placement seemed very unlogical to me; every time I tried to get the big healthkit in the middle house, I ran into the death.
Destruct
Map was fun...
.. until the crit soldiers came.
There is basically only one path, but that not too bad.
Aesthetics were pretty good.
We wasn't able to play it until the end sadly. :/
Isolation
Map was fun. It wasn't too hard and also not too easy.
It felt a bit overscaled at the big bot drop area, but a little bit more cover could fix that.
The waves were alright.
The only really annoying thing was, that the money keep dropping into the deathpits.
Maelstrom
Map was fun.
One of the less map I could play till the end.
Layout is ok. Maybe a bit too short.
The deathpit wasn't working correctly, which wasn't fun as pyro >:|
Aesthetics were not really polished. Looked like alpha in some places.
Sludge
Map was very fun.
The first wave was really hard, we hardly got it with 6 players after many tries. All other waves were alright.
The map is well detailed. But there are some textures that I wouldn't describe as TF2 styled textures (one was a floor texture, someone said it's from soho; the other one was a roof texture, apparently from the bulletcrops pack).
There also were an annoying shadow bug, like big shadows flickering all over the map.
I really liked the layout, it's small but good.
Plateau
Map wasn't fun.
The first waves were easy.
But then (I think it was wave 4) we retried it like 4 times and didn't got it. Was very depressing.
The layout is also a bit unoriginal.
And the aesthetics were totally rushed and bad, there were so many un/misaligned wood textures.
Ventus
Map was ok.
I like the look of the map. But that's it, basically.
We had to gave up at some point, because the bot paths were totally broken.
The bots keep stucking and the cover on the bridge and near the hatch were too less.
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- Feb 15, 2011
- 333
- 344
Atomgrad|4|2|3|4|
Destruct|6|5|6|7|
Isolation|7|9|8|9|
Maelstrom|-|-|-|-|
Sludge|-|-|-|-|
Plateau|6|6|4|6|
Ventus|4|4|10|6|
Atomgrad
This map routinely ruined tests, the waves need a major toning down. The rest of the map clearly reflects how much time you put into it, take that as you will.
Destruct
Overall the map was alright but kind of forgettable. The chokey nature of your map seemed to make the waves harder than if it were more open, and then of course the fact that Engineers could build in impossible to reach spots making Sentry Busters defunct.
Isolation
This map is the strongest contender overall, in my opinion. Waves were fun, a tad easy at times and too hard in others, but these cases were isolated (hah). Aesthetics were nice but kind of empty, which may have been what you were going for with the idea of isolation, but it still feels underdetailed.
Plateau
This map lasted a long time, partly because of us failing a few times but mainly because the waves, numerous as they are, were huge; wave 8 looked like the mission from Coaltown Event. Not much to say about how it was detailed other than it looked unfinished and samey; it's an expansive desert filled with red rocks and wooden buildings, not saying all maps need to add drastically different environments but this map looks really boring.
Ventus
I'll echo pretty much everyone else and say this map is definitely the prettiest princess at the ball, but said princess is a little lacking once she slips out of the ballgown. The map is a sightline; the bad kind of sightline. Waves were pretty annoying, but not difficult, much like the Scale 0.65 Scouts you used, and I'm still going to blame your pathing issues on the fact you didn't use nav_avoid volumes properly. But when all's said and done, it comfortably earned the silver trophy of second place, with a plaque that reads "It could be worse."
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Spacek531
L4: Comfortable Member
- Jan 28, 2012
- 165
- 94
and boy was it fun! (ish)
want a demo of the problem?
EDIT: I apparently didn't successfully record a demo. Sorry!
put in team fortress 2/tf/replay/client/sessions
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Okay, well last time I checked the contest page had beta 5 on it.
Melvin D Engineere
L4: Comfortable Member
- Feb 25, 2012
- 173
- 192
Atomgrad|2|1|3|1|
Destruct|5|3|5|5|
Isolation|7|10|8|10|
Maelstrom|10|5|9|3|
Sludge|-|-|10|-|
Plateau|6|7|5|6|
Ventus|5|3|8|4|
Atomgrad:
I only got to wave 3 before the rest of the team gave up because of the unforgiving map difficulty. The number of bots out at one time (main and support) was overkill: TONE IT DOWN. It was difficult to hold ANY area on the map, especially in the middle area (the main building).
Also, the map lacked light where it was needed.
The biggest issue with Atomgrad? There is a roof that is not clipped: that means engineers can sentry jump to it, go out of bounds, and build UNDER the map.
Destruct:
The center building near the main robot spawn has a RED engineer friendly roof. Sentries can shoot down robots with little worry from enemies including sentry busters.
The waves are the most generic of all waves across all maps. This map was easier than the other maps, because a team of 4 got through the first few waves without much trouble. It would probably be too easy with a full team of 6 people.
Isolation:
More variations of robots to fight would be nice, but the ones you did use work well. The crit axe pyro’s and Demo samurai’s were repetitive after wave 2, but they were cool nevertheless.
Your spies got stuck in the forward upgrade store: its unique design trapped them inside even though players can exit the store after the wave starts.
There was at least one major sight line on the map: right after the player spawn. Pickups were scarce.
Maelstrom:
On the first wave, your bots can get stuck at their spawn, effectively killing the game before it really starts. On wave 4, the tank farther away from the robot spawn makes failure certain unless teams are completely coordinated, especially if there's a 2nd tank out at the same time. The hou-long heater giant heavies were brutal, but they were a good kind of brutal. I like how you dressed up the demoknights and how Heavy Mittens.
When robots don't get stuck at spawn, everything works as intended. Pickups were just right, and major battles occurred where they were expected to happen.
Sludge:
At this rate, I may not have a chance to play sludge before voting ends, and I'm well aware my scoring won't count if I can't play this map in time. But I want to give the other maps feedback regardless.
Plateau:
As far as waves are concerned, you pretty much used every possible bot type imaginable. You could have been more selective on bot types, and maybe have a coherent theme (or go somewhat generic). The scout wave in particular was crazy: give super scouts an inch and it’s game over. Waves in general were long...longer than necessary.
There’s also a spot on a minor path where people can't climb up a slope and can even get stuck there. The overall them of the map is generic, but nowhere as bad as Destruct. Bots not getting stuck is a big plus.
Ventus:
The bots take the shortest path to the hatch, and that makes waves more difficult then necessary, especially with all the giants at the end of the mission. The path the bots take in front of the forward upgrade store is too narrow.
There is bad clipping in the water past the robot spawn...not that it gives players an advantage. If the water is going to have trigger hurt, at least offer an explanation like have the water contaminated with oil or nuclear waste.
Thats pretty bullshit: i've played ventus more recently myself.
LeSwordfish Judges Maps
Note on scoring
Each map for every category has two scores. One is the original score- what i would rate it out of ten. The other is the final score, the original score adjusted to fit the contest judging standards. The adjusted score is the final one.
On a personal note, congratulations. I don't think there's a single map here without the potential for something excellent, and the top grade are easily matching valve-quality.
Atomgrad
Screenshots
Gameplay
Original score: 5
Adjusted score: 5
I suppose it's good enough. The start area has plenty of interesting routes and room to maneuver. All classes are viable, though close-range classes can do little more than hit and run.
I don't like the middle area. It's too slow to move between levels, and if you end up below the wave of bots there's basically nothing you can do, except climb slowly up under harassing fire
The last area is alright, but not very good. Players are constantly trapped at the bottom of a bowl, with cover and height in favour of the robots. This would be painful to defend against human enemies, let alone dozens of robots.
They can't feel fun, you don't need to give them height advantages. The massive amount of ammo makes one sentry position blindingly obvious, and sentry busters can't reach it.
The fences at last also make climbing to the height advantage nothing short of painful. Notice how all official mvm maps make the high ground about as accessible to humans as bots?
Overall it's pretty overscaled. I feel like there was something good here, it just needed more time.
Waves
Original score: 2
Adjusted score: 3
I tried, man, i tried. Never got past wave three.
I can't even say i enjoyed the waves i did play. You're unable to focus on any one threat because there's always a constant wave of scouts or snipers sweeping through. Giants and tanks are just painful to fight when you have to constantly break away from them to deal with harassers. This is all exaggerated by the advantages to the bots meaning you end up falling back often and quickly.
All the waves are too long and too difficult. Staggering them might have made them easier, but they'd still be painfully long. They don't even vary much. One big guy and lots of little guys. It might pick up after wave three... but i've played this map perhaps three times as much as any other, and never beat wave three. It empties servers.
Aesthetics
Original score: 6
Adjusted score: 8
Pretty decent. Pretty basic. It's got some excellent lighting for a night map, a textbook case. A plethora of little details let it down though. Containers in impossible places, and such. I also think the super-bright snow looks strange, like the floor's not being rendered.
The bot spawn is over-busy, picking out the robot spawns not as easy as it could have been. As Idolon pointed out, the scale on the windows are off. Opposite, there's a brick building only visible from one side.
Some areas- floors in particular- are very sparse
Soundscapes are nice, and set the scene well.
I think it could have been improved with a few more scatter props, overlays, that sort of little detail.
Technical
Original score: 5
Adjusted score: 7
Destruct
Screenshots
Gameplay
Original score: 2
Adjusted score: 3
Uuuuuuuuhhhh, i really don't know what to say about this. Only one route, limited heights, sentry/heavy positions that invalidate all the other players, broken spawns, the finale being a pain to defend thanks to the bots having a height advantage. It's just kind of a drag really. Sorry. I know this isn't helpful, but the problems are big enough to be easily, sweepingly described.
Waves
Original score: 3
Adjusted score: 4
Again, uuuuuuuhh. Most of the waves are ridiculously easy, with players barely needing to fall back from their very foremost prepared positions. I took my hand off the keyboard to answer the phone and didn't need to put it back on. I didn't take a single point of damage while i had ammo left. And then the crit solders come along, and instakill everything.
Aesthetics
Original score: 5
Adjusted score: 5
I think there's a solid grasp of the basics here, although what lets the map down is the massive amount of small niggling mistakes.
One of the main problems is that not much thought seems to have gone into what makes realistic sense. Some of the buildings are a bit of a mishmash of detail types. I like the use of the basic tf2 style, although i think you need a little more practice with it.
The debris around the destroyed section is kind of hideous.
The density of detail is all off whack- nothing draws the eye right. Detail is all over the place. As someone said, there's a overlay on every wall.
Also, no soundscapes?
Technical
Original score: 4
Adjusted score: 6
Isolation
Screenshots.
Gameplay
Original Score: 8
Adjusted score: 10
The best, i guess. That might just be because most waves are kinda easy, and there's plenty of money and i like that, but the layout is good too. I feel like it breaks down the usual "spine" mechanic for the raised side, which works really well.
The roof is a very powerful position, and there's not much use of side routes. It feels wider than most mvm maps, which draws attention to how relatively bad flanking in mvm is: although i bet it's a good spy map.
The deathpits are pretty good but it's a shame so many bots just go miles away from them.
The finale is pretty big, snipers are more powerful than they should be.
Waves
Original score: 8
Adjusted score: 10
I like the first wave. It feels like an official first wave. That kind of hangs over to the rest of the map- the difficulty curve is a little off whack but I don't think there's really a bum note anywhere here? Some feel obsessed with being wacky/difficult, but this hits the sweet spot between "interesting" and "reasonable".
I think you might be too generous with your rewards- 1100 coins for the tank?
Also, Samur-eye, please.
Aesthetics
Original score: 7
Adjusted score: 8
Good, bare, probably too bare. Even for mvm. Comparitive size and complexity means that there are far more obvoious empty patches than usual. Shame, really, particularly given your usual detail standard.
I'm not sure i like the contrast between the black ground and white snow: it's a little too stark for me. Sounds and soundscapes are nice.
Density of detail is good, if low throughout. The lights attract attention reasonably well but not fantastically. Partly a problem of the high buildings, i think, you need lights all over the place just to normalise.
Lovely spawn. Lovely fire.
Technical
Original score: 7
Adjusted score: 10
Maelstrom
Screenshots
Gameplay
Original score: 7
Adjusted score: 9
I think the basic layout is good, but there's some definite mis-hits. Firstly, it's slightly too small in places, particularly in the less used routes. This doesn't matter so much because the side routes get used very rarely- I almost never took any path but the bot paths. It also seems a little light on height differences, with not much actual combat taking place at much of an angle. No really good sentry positions, though that might just be my inexperience as an engineer: i just threw sentries down roughly in the path of the bots.
Waves
Original score: 5
Adjusted score: 6
In my notes for this I have, in capitals, "EVERYTHING IS POINTLESSLY WHACK" which i think basically sums it up. It seems that nearly everything has some gimmick or change that means that playing on this map is a constant procss of learning what the hell is happening THIS wave. For example, why are the scouts armed with flying guillotines? It feels like an unwelcome extension of the "horde of small allies" philosophy to give them bleed for no reason. Also, the whip soldiers? Why whips?
That said, I like the game starting with a giant, and I like the gnome heavies.
I also like the large amounts of cash: I think the difficulty is pretty reasonably matched. Once you get used to the crazy, it's a above-average difficulty map, with a good amount of rewards. It's just... the crazy is annoying.
I don't like the tanks. You're forced to split the team, the routes are pretty short, and they mess up the whole wave that follows them.
Aesthetics
Original score: 8
Adjusted score: 9
It may be as bare as Isolation, but the rich and varied colours make it seem less so, somehow? It feels like a lavish, living environment as much as anywhere does, with some very smart decsisions made as to where to allocate the prop budget. The soundscapes are well chosen and placed, and the whole place feels more like a real place than any other map, i think.
It's far from perfect. There's plenty of strange prop placements- convenient piles of barrels, fucking containers. Some of the map, particularly the side buildings, also has some slightly ugly, clumsy brushwork, which really lets it down at times.
Overall very nice, just needs a bit of polish to be, well, valve-quality.
Technical
Original score: 6
Adjusted score: 9
Plateau
Screenshots
Gameplay
Original score: 4
Adjusted score: 5
It's far too simple and clean, far too much of just a single big arena. There's some redeeming features- interesting heights, and i love the deathpit, the deathpit is really well done, i think, but otherwise it's just a bit too vanilla to be much fun.
The symmetry really hurts it. Apart from anything else, It means that the bot routes can never be truly difficult or interesting, as they're practically the same.
Waves
Original score: 3
Adjusted score: 4
Again with the bots, it's far too vanilla. I've berated other maps for going out of their way to be interesting and crazy, but there wasn't really any changes to the standard pattern. Those that there were didn't seem to be mentioned or have attention drawn to them in any way- these scouts were just tougher, for no reason.
It's also pretty easy. I had a crit canister the entire way through, never needed it.
Aesthetics
Original score: 4
Adjusted score: 5
It's very simple, and actively under-detailed. Some of the brushwork is big and clumsy, and props are generally well-placed but limited.
I sense some nice use of the base tf2 style though. More reference from maps like dustbowl, and more time on detailing could have made this quite nice. Ultimately, though, nothing can really disguise that it's a big box with things in
I think your soundscapes are broken- sure are a lot of owls and crows for the desert.
Technical
Original score: 6
Adjusted score: 9
Sludge
Screenshots
Gameplay
Original Score: 7
Adjusted score: 9
I guess the layout is alright? It's good enough. Some bits of it didn't really feel right, particularly the staircases, which are a bit tight. I think there's too much of a dichotomy in the height differences- you're either high up and killing stuff or low down and things are shooting you. Possibly another route in/out of the water would be good.
I think the knockback area is OP, particularly when the bots try and take the flag through it.
Waves
Original score: 7
Adjusted score: 9
The first wave is what loses you the points here. It's super long and a little dull really. There's a few other misses- crit liberty launchers are basically instakill. Mostly, though, it's very fun. A nice balance of "interesting" and "not dumb". Possibly it's a bit easy, or the rewards are too high.
Aesthetics
Original Score: 7
Adjusted score: 8
It's not as bare as some mvm maps, but i still don't like it. Everything seems to be the same shade, a variation on an ugly grey-brown. It needs a bit more colour, I think.
Something about the trees feels kinda pathetic, compared to maelstrom. Like there's only a few trees there and they're dying.
Density of detail is pretty whack, lots of unneeded detail rooms off to the sides.
The music is nice.
Technical
Original score: 6
Adjusted score: 9
Ventus
Screenshots
Gameplay
Original score: 5
Adjusted score: 6
So first of all, some of the routes seem to be broken? As in, the bots just go straight for the hatch in the earlier waves. That makes them dramatically more difficult. If you can't hold the beach you have to fall back all the way to your spawn, as bots flank through the docks, making the bridge unholdable.
There's no cover: it's all so open. Which, when 12+ archers are bearing down on you, basically means that you play perfectly or die. More on the archers later.
The further out routes are rarely used: in addition the engineer locations are really difficult to combat. I think we never broke an engineer's hold on an area.
I think it might be generally overscaled.
Waves
Original Score: 4
Adjusted score: 5
It's hard to judge waves when routes are broken. The first wave pretty alright, the pyros peak it nicely and the heavies are interesting while being easily readable. It goes downhill from there, though. The snipers are really bad- no cover, and an endless swarm of ineffectuals prevent you from reasonably combating real threats. We could never fight off the engineers, because we were always dealing with the waves upon waves of standard troops. There's no downtime. It's not as bad as Atomgrad but the snipers are just an annoyance.
Aesthetics
Original score: 9
Adjusted score: 10
What can i say? Pretty damn beautiful, basically. Watch the shadows and shadowing on some props, and some spytech or something to guard at the finale would be nice. I also still don't like the brown brick building, but otherwise, great.
Technical
Original Score: 6
Adjusted score: 9
Scores
Original
Maps|G & B|Waves|Aesthetics|Technical
Atomgrad|4|2|6|5|
Destruct|2|3|5|4|
Isolation|8|8|7|7|
Maelstrom|7|5|8|6|
Plateau|4|3|4|6|
Sludge|7|7|7|6|
Ventus|5|4|9|6|
Final
Maps|G & B|Waves|Aesthetics|Technical
Atomgrad|5|3|8|7|
Destruct|3|4|5|6|
Isolation|10|10|8|10|
Maelstrom|9|6|9|9|
Plateau|5|4|5|9|
Sludge|9|9|8|9|
Ventus|6|5|10|9|
Note on scoring
Each map for every category has two scores. One is the original score- what i would rate it out of ten. The other is the final score, the original score adjusted to fit the contest judging standards. The adjusted score is the final one.
On a personal note, congratulations. I don't think there's a single map here without the potential for something excellent, and the top grade are easily matching valve-quality.
Atomgrad
Screenshots
Gameplay
Original score: 5
Adjusted score: 5
I suppose it's good enough. The start area has plenty of interesting routes and room to maneuver. All classes are viable, though close-range classes can do little more than hit and run.
I don't like the middle area. It's too slow to move between levels, and if you end up below the wave of bots there's basically nothing you can do, except climb slowly up under harassing fire
The last area is alright, but not very good. Players are constantly trapped at the bottom of a bowl, with cover and height in favour of the robots. This would be painful to defend against human enemies, let alone dozens of robots.
They can't feel fun, you don't need to give them height advantages. The massive amount of ammo makes one sentry position blindingly obvious, and sentry busters can't reach it.
The fences at last also make climbing to the height advantage nothing short of painful. Notice how all official mvm maps make the high ground about as accessible to humans as bots?
Overall it's pretty overscaled. I feel like there was something good here, it just needed more time.
Waves
Original score: 2
Adjusted score: 3
I tried, man, i tried. Never got past wave three.
I can't even say i enjoyed the waves i did play. You're unable to focus on any one threat because there's always a constant wave of scouts or snipers sweeping through. Giants and tanks are just painful to fight when you have to constantly break away from them to deal with harassers. This is all exaggerated by the advantages to the bots meaning you end up falling back often and quickly.
All the waves are too long and too difficult. Staggering them might have made them easier, but they'd still be painfully long. They don't even vary much. One big guy and lots of little guys. It might pick up after wave three... but i've played this map perhaps three times as much as any other, and never beat wave three. It empties servers.
Aesthetics
Original score: 6
Adjusted score: 8
Pretty decent. Pretty basic. It's got some excellent lighting for a night map, a textbook case. A plethora of little details let it down though. Containers in impossible places, and such. I also think the super-bright snow looks strange, like the floor's not being rendered.
The bot spawn is over-busy, picking out the robot spawns not as easy as it could have been. As Idolon pointed out, the scale on the windows are off. Opposite, there's a brick building only visible from one side.
Some areas- floors in particular- are very sparse
Soundscapes are nice, and set the scene well.
I think it could have been improved with a few more scatter props, overlays, that sort of little detail.
Technical
Original score: 5
Adjusted score: 7
- Holograms stay on.
- sentry busters get stuck at the plank bridge below the rocket, making the sentry position directly above the pit very powerful.
- Nodrawing decent but far too many big areas around the backs of buildings are drawn.
- Clipping not great, very basic, good vertically but poor horizontally, lots of little edges. Messy around props at finale.
- Massive hole out of the map above spawn. You can jump under the map and all.
- Only a few console errors.
- Wireframes good, fps good.
- In the doorways into the building, basically everything is rendered
Destruct
Screenshots
Gameplay
Original score: 2
Adjusted score: 3
Uuuuuuuuhhhh, i really don't know what to say about this. Only one route, limited heights, sentry/heavy positions that invalidate all the other players, broken spawns, the finale being a pain to defend thanks to the bots having a height advantage. It's just kind of a drag really. Sorry. I know this isn't helpful, but the problems are big enough to be easily, sweepingly described.
Waves
Original score: 3
Adjusted score: 4
Again, uuuuuuuhh. Most of the waves are ridiculously easy, with players barely needing to fall back from their very foremost prepared positions. I took my hand off the keyboard to answer the phone and didn't need to put it back on. I didn't take a single point of damage while i had ammo left. And then the crit solders come along, and instakill everything.
Aesthetics
Original score: 5
Adjusted score: 5
I think there's a solid grasp of the basics here, although what lets the map down is the massive amount of small niggling mistakes.
One of the main problems is that not much thought seems to have gone into what makes realistic sense. Some of the buildings are a bit of a mishmash of detail types. I like the use of the basic tf2 style, although i think you need a little more practice with it.
The debris around the destroyed section is kind of hideous.
The density of detail is all off whack- nothing draws the eye right. Detail is all over the place. As someone said, there's a overlay on every wall.
Also, no soundscapes?
Technical
Original score: 4
Adjusted score: 6
- Clipping pretty piss-poor actually. Either non-existant or massive and clumsy
- Particularly annoying in small corridors
- Console spam- HDR cube maps, props without collisions
- Nodrawing decent, lots of fiddly little surfaces that could have been got, though
- Optimisation not great, still plenty of stuff displaying on the other side of the tunnel
- First area could also have been far more carefully optimised
- lots of console spam- errors in icons, hdr errors
- Some of the crit soldiers... don't.
Isolation
Screenshots.
Gameplay
Original Score: 8
Adjusted score: 10
The best, i guess. That might just be because most waves are kinda easy, and there's plenty of money and i like that, but the layout is good too. I feel like it breaks down the usual "spine" mechanic for the raised side, which works really well.
The roof is a very powerful position, and there's not much use of side routes. It feels wider than most mvm maps, which draws attention to how relatively bad flanking in mvm is: although i bet it's a good spy map.
The deathpits are pretty good but it's a shame so many bots just go miles away from them.
The finale is pretty big, snipers are more powerful than they should be.
Waves
Original score: 8
Adjusted score: 10
I like the first wave. It feels like an official first wave. That kind of hangs over to the rest of the map- the difficulty curve is a little off whack but I don't think there's really a bum note anywhere here? Some feel obsessed with being wacky/difficult, but this hits the sweet spot between "interesting" and "reasonable".
I think you might be too generous with your rewards- 1100 coins for the tank?
Also, Samur-eye, please.
Aesthetics
Original score: 7
Adjusted score: 8
Good, bare, probably too bare. Even for mvm. Comparitive size and complexity means that there are far more obvoious empty patches than usual. Shame, really, particularly given your usual detail standard.
I'm not sure i like the contrast between the black ground and white snow: it's a little too stark for me. Sounds and soundscapes are nice.
Density of detail is good, if low throughout. The lights attract attention reasonably well but not fantastically. Partly a problem of the high buildings, i think, you need lights all over the place just to normalise.
Lovely spawn. Lovely fire.
Technical
Original score: 7
Adjusted score: 10
- Plenty of nodrawing as needed
- Good optimisation
- Spawn overlays don't seem to be working
- Clipping not good, lots of edges and corners
- No console spam
Maelstrom
Screenshots
Gameplay
Original score: 7
Adjusted score: 9
I think the basic layout is good, but there's some definite mis-hits. Firstly, it's slightly too small in places, particularly in the less used routes. This doesn't matter so much because the side routes get used very rarely- I almost never took any path but the bot paths. It also seems a little light on height differences, with not much actual combat taking place at much of an angle. No really good sentry positions, though that might just be my inexperience as an engineer: i just threw sentries down roughly in the path of the bots.
Waves
Original score: 5
Adjusted score: 6
In my notes for this I have, in capitals, "EVERYTHING IS POINTLESSLY WHACK" which i think basically sums it up. It seems that nearly everything has some gimmick or change that means that playing on this map is a constant procss of learning what the hell is happening THIS wave. For example, why are the scouts armed with flying guillotines? It feels like an unwelcome extension of the "horde of small allies" philosophy to give them bleed for no reason. Also, the whip soldiers? Why whips?
That said, I like the game starting with a giant, and I like the gnome heavies.
I also like the large amounts of cash: I think the difficulty is pretty reasonably matched. Once you get used to the crazy, it's a above-average difficulty map, with a good amount of rewards. It's just... the crazy is annoying.
I don't like the tanks. You're forced to split the team, the routes are pretty short, and they mess up the whole wave that follows them.
Aesthetics
Original score: 8
Adjusted score: 9
It may be as bare as Isolation, but the rich and varied colours make it seem less so, somehow? It feels like a lavish, living environment as much as anywhere does, with some very smart decsisions made as to where to allocate the prop budget. The soundscapes are well chosen and placed, and the whole place feels more like a real place than any other map, i think.
It's far from perfect. There's plenty of strange prop placements- convenient piles of barrels, fucking containers. Some of the map, particularly the side buildings, also has some slightly ugly, clumsy brushwork, which really lets it down at times.
Overall very nice, just needs a bit of polish to be, well, valve-quality.
Technical
Original score: 6
Adjusted score: 9
- No more nodraw needed.
- Some small console spam
- Clipping very variable. Some areas good, some really not.
- Optimisation about as good as it can be, really
- The forward upgrade station only worked sometimes.
- Bots that fell into the "pit" often kind of just stared out, like dogs looking for you to drop a bit of ham. It was almost sweet.
Plateau
Screenshots
Gameplay
Original score: 4
Adjusted score: 5
It's far too simple and clean, far too much of just a single big arena. There's some redeeming features- interesting heights, and i love the deathpit, the deathpit is really well done, i think, but otherwise it's just a bit too vanilla to be much fun.
The symmetry really hurts it. Apart from anything else, It means that the bot routes can never be truly difficult or interesting, as they're practically the same.
Waves
Original score: 3
Adjusted score: 4
Again with the bots, it's far too vanilla. I've berated other maps for going out of their way to be interesting and crazy, but there wasn't really any changes to the standard pattern. Those that there were didn't seem to be mentioned or have attention drawn to them in any way- these scouts were just tougher, for no reason.
It's also pretty easy. I had a crit canister the entire way through, never needed it.
Aesthetics
Original score: 4
Adjusted score: 5
It's very simple, and actively under-detailed. Some of the brushwork is big and clumsy, and props are generally well-placed but limited.
I sense some nice use of the base tf2 style though. More reference from maps like dustbowl, and more time on detailing could have made this quite nice. Ultimately, though, nothing can really disguise that it's a big box with things in
I think your soundscapes are broken- sure are a lot of owls and crows for the desert.
Technical
Original score: 6
Adjusted score: 9
- Not very much nodraw needed, at least partially due to few brushes.
- Layout is TERRIBLE for optimisation
- Clipping pretty good- not much stuff, but i never caught on it.
- Watch your displacements- some small patches are too steeply angled to walk on.
Sludge
Screenshots
Gameplay
Original Score: 7
Adjusted score: 9
I guess the layout is alright? It's good enough. Some bits of it didn't really feel right, particularly the staircases, which are a bit tight. I think there's too much of a dichotomy in the height differences- you're either high up and killing stuff or low down and things are shooting you. Possibly another route in/out of the water would be good.
I think the knockback area is OP, particularly when the bots try and take the flag through it.
Waves
Original score: 7
Adjusted score: 9
The first wave is what loses you the points here. It's super long and a little dull really. There's a few other misses- crit liberty launchers are basically instakill. Mostly, though, it's very fun. A nice balance of "interesting" and "not dumb". Possibly it's a bit easy, or the rewards are too high.
Aesthetics
Original Score: 7
Adjusted score: 8
It's not as bare as some mvm maps, but i still don't like it. Everything seems to be the same shade, a variation on an ugly grey-brown. It needs a bit more colour, I think.
Something about the trees feels kinda pathetic, compared to maelstrom. Like there's only a few trees there and they're dying.
Density of detail is pretty whack, lots of unneeded detail rooms off to the sides.
The music is nice.
Technical
Original score: 6
Adjusted score: 9
- What in gods name is up with those shadows?
- Forward upgrade station seems to break sometimes.
- Clipping seems... actually good, god forbid. I'd like to see the rock collisions cleaned up.
- Great big load of console spam.
- Optimisation not great, but couldn't really be.
Ventus
Screenshots
Gameplay
Original score: 5
Adjusted score: 6
So first of all, some of the routes seem to be broken? As in, the bots just go straight for the hatch in the earlier waves. That makes them dramatically more difficult. If you can't hold the beach you have to fall back all the way to your spawn, as bots flank through the docks, making the bridge unholdable.
There's no cover: it's all so open. Which, when 12+ archers are bearing down on you, basically means that you play perfectly or die. More on the archers later.
The further out routes are rarely used: in addition the engineer locations are really difficult to combat. I think we never broke an engineer's hold on an area.
I think it might be generally overscaled.
Waves
Original Score: 4
Adjusted score: 5
It's hard to judge waves when routes are broken. The first wave pretty alright, the pyros peak it nicely and the heavies are interesting while being easily readable. It goes downhill from there, though. The snipers are really bad- no cover, and an endless swarm of ineffectuals prevent you from reasonably combating real threats. We could never fight off the engineers, because we were always dealing with the waves upon waves of standard troops. There's no downtime. It's not as bad as Atomgrad but the snipers are just an annoyance.
Aesthetics
Original score: 9
Adjusted score: 10
What can i say? Pretty damn beautiful, basically. Watch the shadows and shadowing on some props, and some spytech or something to guard at the finale would be nice. I also still don't like the brown brick building, but otherwise, great.
Technical
Original Score: 6
Adjusted score: 9
- Broken routes
- Some console spam
- Clipping isn't great, really.
- No more nodraw needed, though.
- As i mentioned before, the shadows are frequently off.
Scores
Original
Atomgrad|4|2|6|5|
Destruct|2|3|5|4|
Isolation|8|8|7|7|
Maelstrom|7|5|8|6|
Plateau|4|3|4|6|
Sludge|7|7|7|6|
Ventus|5|4|9|6|
Final
Atomgrad|5|3|8|7|
Destruct|3|4|5|6|
Isolation|10|10|8|10|
Maelstrom|9|6|9|9|
Plateau|5|4|5|9|
Sludge|9|9|8|9|
Ventus|6|5|10|9|
- Status