MvM and Gunmettle Update: Major Game Changes

Discussion in 'Team Fortress 2 Talk' started by Yellow, Jul 26, 2015.

  1. Yellow

    Yellow L1: Registered

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    So with the new weapon balances, there are some changes to how MvM is played. Most of the changes don't affect MvM too much other than change how to use certain items, similar to the standard game. However there were two changes to MvM that make every mission extremely simple.

    The first being pyro related: the scorch shot has gotten a large upgrade in regards to it's knockback, being even more powerful than full airblast upgrade on the stock flamethrower (if the target is on fire, if its a targe demo or a pyro then it just acts like a ranged airblast), it is comparable to the heavy's rage knockback.

    Video example of 3 pyros in wave 666 mission using the scorch shot
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ksc9mhAikE&ab_channel=TheMacco26

    The second being a mvm cash situation: You can use a cash refund every wave no matter what, meaning if you buy things on wave 1, on wave 2 you can refund to get all your money back and repeat it on every wave.

    Video talking about a sydney sleeper buff, the scorch shot with just 1 pyro, and the refund system
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sT2GzCbxj0&ab_channel=TheMacco26

    So with these changes in mind, how does that affect mappers for mvm? Should the missions be made harder to compensate these changes? Let me know in the thread.

    That's all I wanted to share, hope this helps.
     
  2. UKCS-Alias

    aa UKCS-Alias Mann vs Machine... or... Mapper vs Meta?

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    Never should you change your mission based on broken systems. All that you will do is create a mission that is broken once valve fixes it. Its bad enough that some missions/metas got heavily broken by some of the weapon changes they did before:
    The short circuit for example was the perfect potential replacement for a medic that only knows how to use shields. Something expert meta's realy like. The phlog also had a few major flaws and specificly in mvm it has a very slow charge rate.

    And it might take a while, but eventualy they still do fix these bugs. Especialy when its considered heavily overpowered. The medic shield on 2cities might seem overpowered, but on other missions (mecha/expert) is most of the time a hazard to the team by lacking dps. And reducing knockback only in mvm shouldnt be too hard considering what they did to the phlog and miniguns (which have a 75% damage reduction agianst tanks).

    The 2nd part is still something most mvm veterans are heavily against. There has been alot of raging about it on SPUD. Especialy since originaly that was a result from an exploit which valve now just accepted. And not only that, instead of being able to do that at wave 4 they made it possible at wave 2. I am one of the people that still find this a realy bad thing as it realy removes all the skill from a mission as all you do is change your team to counter everything.

    There are many mvm players refusing to go mann up as long as this bug exists as they want a chalenge. And if they go on that as group. If they notice someone doing that in an unreasonable way (most teams only allow the sniper to change to spy/pyro when a sniper is considered useless/less ideal in a certain wave) they votekick them anyway.

    The better custom servers even disabled respecs entirely.
     
  3. Jethro

    Jethro MUSty Complainer

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    Speaking of the Gun Mettle update itself, they could easily extend the campaign system to MvM. Buy a campaign pass, money goes to the mapmaker, you get two Mann-Up tickets free a week for the campaign(and can buy more if you want) custom map and tours get added to the game.

    Also, speaking as a non-regular MvM player, I'm a biiiig fan of the fact they've added respecs on every wave. What they should do perhaps is remove that/revert to the previous system on the expert tours? While the intermediate/advanced are unchanged?
     
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  4. Yellow

    Yellow L1: Registered

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    I like the idea, but we may not get that because it could possibly make players feel like they have to MvM.

    MvM could seriously use an update though, the last major content update for MvM was two cities back in November of 2013.
     
  5. UKCS-Alias

    aa UKCS-Alias Mann vs Machine... or... Mapper vs Meta?

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    I totaly agree that its a good system on that part. But it only works on tours with just a single mission. You dont want to wait 2 weeks to just finish 1 tour containing 4 maps.
    Advanced already is far too easy for all current existing tours. Only mecha engine is worthy to play. But the respecs broke that aswel as teams can just change to pyro each wave removing that difficulty aswel.

    And although im not against the idea of infinite respecs in advanced. The way they did it is just poor. They should have made it that you have to collect the respecs. Removing the limit at only having 1 respec but still require players to collect the cash again. If that limit was $3000 and they collected $6000 at wave 6/7 they can respec twice which effectively means they can respec each wave.

    The problem lies in early respecs. Early waves are often good to weed out bad players. A good player knows the class and upgrade path that he needs. A bad player doesnt and is just going to guess randomly. A bit of common sense is just a must. Intermediate is good enough to learn that. but for advanced having such player is a hazard.

    Dont give bad players the idea that they stand a chance if they dont. It often better to just wipe them out early and show them they arent up to the job.

    The #1 complaint of expert players is that mvm is constantly getting easier because of these changes. The giant medic waves used to be hard on expert. But as someone goes spy every single time now even that wave is just boring.
    Its bad enough that we can finish the expert tour (all 3 missions!) in 70 minutes with good teams. I can still remember the days where it took you 70 minutes to just finish 1 mission. Which for expert mvm players is alot more fun as it brings a chalenge.
     
  6. Jethro

    Jethro MUSty Complainer

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    I'm sorry but I'm all for giving bad players the idea that they stand a chance. How else do bad players persevere and become good players?
     
  7. UKCS-Alias

    aa UKCS-Alias Mann vs Machine... or... Mapper vs Meta?

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    There is a point where you should not help them. The part to realize that is the most important learning part. Once they realize it they can start the process to become good.

    Most mvm players i see are terrible at even planning. They dont communicate and they dont even get basic concepts. They blindly shoot at medics yet there is a sticky trap 2 seconds away from the medic. For tanks they just ignore it most of the time, they cant even plan on which classes that need to follow it.

    This first step is required to even go for advanced. Its called advanced as its ment to be for players that at least are better than the basic players. If they cant handle it at all it should be clear early on. If they beat wave 1 and 2 yet get devestated at wave 3 then so be it. Better that than having them change tactics every time so they take 45minutes to get to wave 5 yet still end up failing there.

    Its an illusion at getting better. Instead of getting better they randomly find a tactic that works for the next wave.

    While at the same time making too easy modes even easier. Does valve realy want the veterans to fall asleep?

    Also, i can barely see a part where valve would gain more profit. Most of the time its the 0 tour players getting stuck which most likely only had their free ticket. So even if they beat it, it still wont help. And for server capacity it doesnt matter aswel since valve still runs bootcamp servers. Once they wasted their ticket they would just go there. Rarely someone would start paying. Those who did already were good enough most of the time.
     
  8. RubbishyUser

    RubbishyUser L7: Fancy Member

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    They fixed the Crusader's Crossbow having seemingly infinite firing speed when you upgrade the clip size just a couple weeks after the Two Cities update. It wasn't as good as it sounds: the reload is as normal, but you emptied a clip of 10 syringes fast enough that uber medics couldn't pop between being hit by the first arrow and dying.

    When it comes to the MvM meta: as far as I am concerned, MvM (as it stands) tests skill, not strategy. That's why good players can goofball around with demoknights or whatever and still win, and bad players fitting the established meta still lose. Snipers and spies get a 1000 points or none at all. From that point of view, the respecs change nothing: with a bad team, now amount of class shuffling will save you.
     
  9. UKCS-Alias

    aa UKCS-Alias Mann vs Machine... or... Mapper vs Meta?

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    The problem also lies in the part that strategy is flawed. If you require too much of it people wont be able to ever complete it. And too little means people will just use anything. The meta is a strategy. And for many that already is hated. Strategy on its own should not carry mvm.
    Its also because those good players know the role of each class. They can form a strategy with nearly any setup. Its something that you also have to learn.
    Even with engineers you see this part. A good engineer will show alot more points than a bad one. Luckily for bad players the engineer is part of the basic strategy and has a low requirement in skill.

    I do agree mvm is too easy in its current state. Expert doesnt deserve its name and advanced in its name is a joke for anything except mecha engine.
    There is a reason why custom maps already try to make advanced harder than valve advanced. But that is also because the difficulty levels are incorrect. If we look at difficulties:

    First we have the normal modes
    Then we have the intermediate tour
    Then we have the inetermediate modes of the 2city maps, normal bigrock and steel trap as 1 difficulty group (3 difficulties are at the same level!)
    Then comes 2cities advanced
    *insert skill gap*
    Then comes mecha
    *insert little gap*
    Then comes expert

    This is flawed and makes people unable to decently categorize their difficulty. Worse being that when you make a mission for a map and it should be advanced, and it is advanced on 2city level, people says its too easy for advanced. Which is incorrect
    if its between 2cities and mecha: its a perfect advanced mission. You are not forced to make it harder than mecha. Thats just bad behaviour. If its harder than mecha and that was your idea to begin with, at least take the guts to just call it expert.
     
  10. Turbo Lover

    aa Turbo Lover Fight me under Glasgow Central Station

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    I'm not an expert MvM player but personally I think Two Cities is about as difficult as I want MvM to be, maybe a little more difficult.

    I also think infinite free refunds is pushing it, but I don't think it's a deal breaker as far as making things too easy goes, in my experience of playing Two Cities with folk from TF2M chat, nobody really takes advantage of the refunds to such a degree that it becomes a problem.

    As far as mapping for MvM goes, I'm with Alias, you definitely shouldn't adjust your waves to be more difficult for the sake of one tactic that has begun to cause a few small problems.

    In regards to difficulty, I think the best course of action is just to create multiple missions for your map of varying difficulties and let the players figure out which ones are most enjoyable for them. If expert MvM players are finding the current Expert tours too easy with recent updates, make an even more difficult mission for them.

    The difficulty categorisation of official tours could use a rethinking though. Start by bumping Normal on the original three maps down to Easy.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2015
  11. Yellow

    Yellow L1: Registered

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    Different missions for maps does help alot, it allows the map to be open to everyone and not punish newer players while not being boring to advance players. The categorization does need a revamp as well, but I suppose we have to wait until the next mvm update, which may have to wait after the matchmaking update (not that matchmaking is bad, tf2 really needs it).