Longhaul
- Thread starter Ankh
- Start date
iciz
L2: Junior Member
- Mar 17, 2009
- 84
- 60
Don't get me wrong, I'm a strong believer in function over beauty (even if I'm a sucker for awesome looking architecture,) and I'm glad to hear your focusing on the right elements here (gameplay). The real reason I was sadden to see the structures go was because I could just imagine all the interesting game play that could take place in them, but only in a different game mode.
So I knew that it was unavoidable that they would eventually get cut down along with other parts, in order to make the mode work. Depth and re-playability is something I love to see in maps also, but I just don't know if CTF can really have all that much and still be fun. It feels like a different mode would work a lot better for what your trying to accomplish here, if I understand your goals correctly. I guess only play testing will tell.
I think there are a few reasons 2fort suffers so much. First, server modifications enabling instant re-spawn and 32 player slots, creating an instant spamfest. Second, lack of cooperation in public servers from other players (also part of the game mode's fault). And Third, The nature of the game mode itself has problems. Same with territorial control. I've heard some people argue that any game mode can work, it's the map design that matters. I would disagree with that idea. Sometimes nothing can save or improve a game mode.
The focus in a normal CTF is mainly on defending the flag rooms and guarding the choke points. Take away choke points and there is no point in focusing on anything other then the flag room, because once your flag has left the base, you've lost it for good. So teams are encouraged to turtle more.
The great thing about RAD (Random Attack / Defend) or just good old CP, is that unlike CTF, both teams have points of focus outside their bases. Putting a cp inside the outer structures would put a focus on them for both teams, making them actually useful.
Also remember that in the RAD game mode the team that caps the point first becomes the defenders of it. So the points that are closer to one teams base then the others will most likely become defense points for that side anyway. Forward spawns could also help in this mode.
So I knew that it was unavoidable that they would eventually get cut down along with other parts, in order to make the mode work. Depth and re-playability is something I love to see in maps also, but I just don't know if CTF can really have all that much and still be fun. It feels like a different mode would work a lot better for what your trying to accomplish here, if I understand your goals correctly. I guess only play testing will tell.
I think there are a few reasons 2fort suffers so much. First, server modifications enabling instant re-spawn and 32 player slots, creating an instant spamfest. Second, lack of cooperation in public servers from other players (also part of the game mode's fault). And Third, The nature of the game mode itself has problems. Same with territorial control. I've heard some people argue that any game mode can work, it's the map design that matters. I would disagree with that idea. Sometimes nothing can save or improve a game mode.
The focus in a normal CTF is mainly on defending the flag rooms and guarding the choke points. Take away choke points and there is no point in focusing on anything other then the flag room, because once your flag has left the base, you've lost it for good. So teams are encouraged to turtle more.
The great thing about RAD (Random Attack / Defend) or just good old CP, is that unlike CTF, both teams have points of focus outside their bases. Putting a cp inside the outer structures would put a focus on them for both teams, making them actually useful.
Also remember that in the RAD game mode the team that caps the point first becomes the defenders of it. So the points that are closer to one teams base then the others will most likely become defense points for that side anyway. Forward spawns could also help in this mode.
- Sep 18, 2008
- 114
- 41
I'm not convinced interesting gameplay would have happened in them even in a push map - they were totally off the path, and the setup now ensures that at least the parts remaining will be used.
Now when I look at 2fort I see a number of other problems, beyond the 32-man instaspawn setup.
1) The routes to the intel go through their spawn and through a sentry farm. This basically means you have to kill their entire defense and anyone respawning in order to get at the intel. Then, by the time you have it, they've just about respawned while you're on low health and a few men down, so you basically have to be dominating their team utterly in order to get an organized, successful push. that or spawncamping. Well, sawmill and Turbine don't have this problem
2) The map is so small, and with so little neutral zone that once you're beyond the halfway point, it's as good as capped, because the battle on the bridge ensures the rest of the other team should be around there, providing more than enough of a diversion for any carrier. Turbine has a much larger open area and suffers less from this problem, so does Well and even Sawmill.
I feel there should be an equal focus on offense and defense, but if your defense begins at your front lines, it's not really much of a focus is it? So separating the two should give defensive classes the ability to defend properly and offensive classes a chance to attack.
Regardless, I'll keep experimenting, but I'm determined to make this work. I may add things like control points outside the base, but I think the main things that needs balancing is the underground - it's too easy a way of bypassing the fight
Now when I look at 2fort I see a number of other problems, beyond the 32-man instaspawn setup.
1) The routes to the intel go through their spawn and through a sentry farm. This basically means you have to kill their entire defense and anyone respawning in order to get at the intel. Then, by the time you have it, they've just about respawned while you're on low health and a few men down, so you basically have to be dominating their team utterly in order to get an organized, successful push. that or spawncamping. Well, sawmill and Turbine don't have this problem
2) The map is so small, and with so little neutral zone that once you're beyond the halfway point, it's as good as capped, because the battle on the bridge ensures the rest of the other team should be around there, providing more than enough of a diversion for any carrier. Turbine has a much larger open area and suffers less from this problem, so does Well and even Sawmill.
I feel there should be an equal focus on offense and defense, but if your defense begins at your front lines, it's not really much of a focus is it? So separating the two should give defensive classes the ability to defend properly and offensive classes a chance to attack.
Regardless, I'll keep experimenting, but I'm determined to make this work. I may add things like control points outside the base, but I think the main things that needs balancing is the underground - it's too easy a way of bypassing the fight
- Sep 28, 2009
- 3,075
- 2,778
This map is huge, but of all the other maps this gameday, I felt it was the most enjoyable. It was a bit too big, and was difficult for most classes to play on. It would also play better as a cp map, considering the distance that needs to be crossed by the flag carrier.
iciz
L2: Junior Member
- Mar 17, 2009
- 84
- 60
Here are my quick thoughts after the play test on A4.
I totally disagree with Nerdboy. I found the map to be completely accommodating to all classes. I think the real problem here is that most classes are not very effective in this game mode (other then Scout) in such an open map. However, I do think that CTF worked pretty well with the map being as open as it is. If you modified the mode, it might work. I would take a look at the interesting mode created by The_Ulf in ctf_bomb_factory. It might work really well here.
Me and my brother (FieryEyes) really enjoyed playing it. If you ever want some people to run through a version of your map, for feedback and testing, just add us to your friends list. We'd be happy to test it out whenever we can.
I can not believe the lack of comments on this map. It kind of depresses me. Why the heck was it made the last map we tested anyway?
Keep up the awesome work man. :thumbup1:
- Upper level inside the base does not feel very useful (in this game mode anyway), and is out of the way enough to be completely ignored.
- Sky box is too low. I can hit my head on it real easy when sticky jumping off a roof.
- Wooden walkway props between buildings need to be player clipped on the ends. Right now you get stuck there, and need to jump to get on them. Very annoying.
- Trains in the middle building are facing each other! Looks kind of strange.
- The Interior of the base needs to be streamlined so it feels and plays differently from the outside areas more. I think the air vents near the intel room are too much.
I totally disagree with Nerdboy. I found the map to be completely accommodating to all classes. I think the real problem here is that most classes are not very effective in this game mode (other then Scout) in such an open map. However, I do think that CTF worked pretty well with the map being as open as it is. If you modified the mode, it might work. I would take a look at the interesting mode created by The_Ulf in ctf_bomb_factory. It might work really well here.
Me and my brother (FieryEyes) really enjoyed playing it. If you ever want some people to run through a version of your map, for feedback and testing, just add us to your friends list. We'd be happy to test it out whenever we can.
I can not believe the lack of comments on this map. It kind of depresses me. Why the heck was it made the last map we tested anyway?
Keep up the awesome work man. :thumbup1:
- Sep 18, 2008
- 114
- 41
-I'll look at the upper level , that's certainly something I noticed too, but I"ll see how it fares in 5CP
-the Skybox I'll raise, that shouldn't be too much of an issue
-Walkways are clipped in the next version already
-in the next version they moved towards each other and I thought of making them crash into each other with a payload explosion. I'll see what I can do about them, but there was a reason they were facing each other
-I'll have a look at the vents, I'm not sure they're really a problem though
But this should end up having a lot altered before another CTF version is released I think, I have a plan for that mode at least, but I think I should really try testing the 5CP variant
anyways, added. I'll let you two know if I'm organizing any testing events
-the Skybox I'll raise, that shouldn't be too much of an issue
-Walkways are clipped in the next version already
-in the next version they moved towards each other and I thought of making them crash into each other with a payload explosion. I'll see what I can do about them, but there was a reason they were facing each other
-I'll have a look at the vents, I'm not sure they're really a problem though
But this should end up having a lot altered before another CTF version is released I think, I have a plan for that mode at least, but I think I should really try testing the 5CP variant
anyways, added. I'll let you two know if I'm organizing any testing events