CP innovation

Discussion in 'Map Factory' started by ScorpioUprising, Jan 31, 2014.

  1. ScorpioUprising

    aa ScorpioUprising

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    cp_innovation is a fairly standard 5cp map, largely modeled after granary. As the name (jokingly) implies, its not particularly innovative, but rather a solid example of the 5cp game type. I imagine the map as an attempt to make a version of granary that is a little more interesting, with some additional options scattered throughout.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2014
  2. Freyja

    aa Freyja ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    Going for multiple entries into the contest hey? :O Nice!
     
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  3. nightwatch

    aa nightwatch

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    Seems pretty good so far! Although you've put an emphasis on additional options, I think you may find after testing that routes to push through are both too numerous and too spread out, and you may need to condense some of the options available, particularly in the area pushing into the last points.

    Also, shutter doors are the worst thing since diced bread.
     
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  4. Prestige

    aa Prestige im not gay anymore

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    can't wait to hide under that forward spawn! also shutter doors are a necessary evil of 5cps it seems. basically every good 5cp has em. someone write up an essay on why. something to do with holding in different areas and it assisting in deciding where players hold.
     
  5. UKCS-Alias

    aa UKCS-Alias Mann vs Machine... or... Mapper vs Meta?

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    I think its just because they are blind doors. They will allways alert the players near them but when they dont they dont know what is behind. This allows for a suprise and forcing the team to focus on multiple areas making pushes more effective when well performed. And this works in both directions.

    And when you say all good 5cp maps have them i was starting to think about other maps that also have them and i cant think of any. So this could be a reason since its not used that often on many maps.

    But also what nightwatch says. Shutter doors also bring issues. A few classes gain alot from it and some are harmed alot by it:
    • A demoman can plant stickies behind them and do this safely. And since the door alerts him it has a high chance of success
    • A spy however cant sneak through them. Its a blatant give away, and for that reason bad.
    • A sniper cant shoot through it, although in some cases it doesnt realy matter as sightlines lack (granary shows this on 1 of the doors) on for example well its a good way to block the sniper view (and if you still want the view you have the upstairs area which automaticly makes aiming harder). To me this is where shutter doors can realy help into preventing snipers from becoming overpowered.
    Especialy the demoman on the above shows the real problem. They are able to harm maps since there is no way to sneak through as spy which normaly would be the best counter after an ubercharge.

    Still, since the doors do add some variety in gameplay removing them because of that is something i dont recommend, instead a simple counter (granary has a doorless route ending just behind such gate) would already do enough. Still, use them only when you want to block a sightline. Using them for the sake of using them isnt a good thing.
     
  6. Freyja

    aa Freyja ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    Turbine has the shutter door doesn't it? That's the only other non-5cp map I can think of.
     
  7. wareya

    wareya L7: Fancy Member

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    I think every "good"/competitive 5cp map has a shutter or two /somewhere/
    granary 2nd's building has like four
    badlands trash & bridge (base entrances from 2nd)
    gullywash 2nd base entrance
    snakewater last
    metalworks 2nd
    process has one (two) on mid and one on each 2nd point going into last

    as for other custom 5cp maps that I don't know whether they're good or not, derecho and sunshine both have shutters between last and 2nd. so it's like you seem to need a shutter between last and 2nd for some reason.

    if you notice something, all these doors are in places that have freakish sightlines one way or another without the doors there.
    also, every 2nd point/last point connection has a shutter /somewhere/

    The way I see it, shutters are useful so that you don't have "through" sightlines that go way away from a chokepont, through it, to another entrance somewhere behind it. I think all the ones I mentioned do something like that.
    badlands bridge shutter cuts off choke through main; badlands trash shutter cuts off trash through trash shutter through main shutter into valley; granary's block sightlines from way in the back of last through to onto the 2nd point itself; gullywash blocks lobby to choke; snakewater blocks lobby to spawn; process blocks through side-hall onto forward (though that's probably not its purpose); metalworks blocks from lobby onto last & another...
    basically shutters are kind of used all the time on 5cp maps for sightline purposes (or at least it seems like it)
     
  8. Pocket

    aa Pocket func_croc

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    And it's one of the worst things about Turbine.
     
  9. ScorpioUprising

    aa ScorpioUprising

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    A3 is out. Added some fences to outside of map for detailing purposes, signs to direct people, fixed a geometry inconsistency at 2nd, re-positioned some healthpacks.

    Nightwatch: Not sure about the too many entrances/too spread out thing. If you compare this with process, it has the same number of entrances to last, in roughly analogous positions. They serve different purposes, for sure, but I don't think they'll be overly difficult to deal with. Unlike process, if it does end up with too many entrances, the far left door is very easy to get rid of, so thats a bit of a bonus. And shutter doors are a necessity.

    The primary purpose of a shutter door is to restrict a sightline, without restricting movement between areas. When you are in badlands lobby you can't see or be seen at the chokepoint to middle (the door blocks the visibility). However, if you need to move quickly to spire by rocket jumping from lobby, you only need to peak out the door and jump, as opposed to the doors at gravelpit C, where you have to walk out a choke, walk right or left (out from under the slanted roof) and then rocket jump. Or, you are a demo in lobby, you need to get to choke, instead of walking around a corner, you just walk to the door and sticky jump to or near choke.

    Yes, you can "manipulate" shutter doors in a way that might seem suboptimal; sticky traps, pyros airblasting, heavy camping the door, etc etc. But with those, the primary issue is placement and positioning. Putting shutters too close to or near primary attack routes does lead to these sorts of manipulations, so the primary way of resolving it is to ensure that shutters serve as secondary entrances (further from the actual point of contention) than other choke points which are more open. The right most shutter door on process that leads to the second control point from last point is a perfect example. If you try to hold forward on that door with a sticky trap, you are wayyyy out of position so any sneaky scout that flanks you through the ramp or pushes quickly through the door gets to eat your lunch for free, and your team can't support you without getting destroyed by spam. Alternatively, if that door wasn't there, sightlines from the control point to the choke room there would be ridiculous from either angle, making it really hard to capture or recapture the point.

    Ultimately, its down to how you use them.
     
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  10. ScorpioUprising

    aa ScorpioUprising

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    A4 is out. Only real change is removing the shutter door at the second point and putting in a gravelpit style overhang.
     
  11. ScorpioUprising

    aa ScorpioUprising

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    A5 is out. Contest entry, etc.
     
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  12. ScorpioUprising

    aa ScorpioUprising

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