I like the idea of a small arena map, but you will need to change the spawn positioning and add a few things to make it less demo friendly.
ARENA Ethanol
- Thread starter GPuzzle
- Start date
A2 is out!
Changelog:
New everything (theme, concept, layout...)
Finally I got some good displacements.
Also:
I finally got a map out of Alpha 1. I really suck at mapping.
Changelog:
New everything (theme, concept, layout...)
Finally I got some good displacements.
Also:
I finally got a map out of Alpha 1. I really suck at mapping.
Update bump so people can see that I updated it. Also leave feedback.
That's just my habit, sorry. I usually just see the threads on the first page. Or check "new posts". I posted this at night, and then people went online and didn't left any feedback. I was a bit confused, so I decided to bump the thread so people could see if they used my habit of "new posts".
A3 released!
Changelog:
Scaled everything down to 192.
Added ramp at the wall that was unreacheable by walking.
Added container near ramp.
Added balcony crossing the entrance of the CP house on the outside.
Changelog:
Scaled everything down to 192.
Added ramp at the wall that was unreacheable by walking.
Added container near ramp.
Added balcony crossing the entrance of the CP house on the outside.
OK, does anyone has something to say on the gameday?
According to nightwatch, the map was wide open, instead of short and small, which is the base for most arena maps.
It was too favorable to Scouts, but it is a goddamn arena map, it will be hard to make it less favorable to Scouts.
And the best part was that no one said that it was overscaled.
Any more feedback?
Also, 400 posts!
According to nightwatch, the map was wide open, instead of short and small, which is the base for most arena maps.
It was too favorable to Scouts, but it is a goddamn arena map, it will be hard to make it less favorable to Scouts.
And the best part was that no one said that it was overscaled.
Any more feedback?
Also, 400 posts!
What do the official arena maps show you?
Large open areas are contrasted with tighter areas. Lumberyard has the stairs and building, Offblast has all the hallways circling the map, Ravine has the ravines and buildings, Nucleus has all the side areas.
Yes, Scouts will always be effective. But are there areas where stronger classes can easily destroy them or catch them in a corner? Is your map a balance of open and closed spaces?
I didn't play it though.
Large open areas are contrasted with tighter areas. Lumberyard has the stairs and building, Offblast has all the hallways circling the map, Ravine has the ravines and buildings, Nucleus has all the side areas.
Yes, Scouts will always be effective. But are there areas where stronger classes can easily destroy them or catch them in a corner? Is your map a balance of open and closed spaces?
I didn't play it though.
Well, it's time to add some cover in the middle building.
That's something I'll do for A4.
That's something I'll do for A4.
Alpha 4 released:
Fixed BLU ramp being 32 units away from BLU construction.
Added cover inside of the refinery.
Added cover outside the refinery.
Added a shack in the main entrance of the refinery for each team.
Every feedback is welcome.
Fixed BLU ramp being 32 units away from BLU construction.
Added cover inside of the refinery.
Added cover outside the refinery.
Added a shack in the main entrance of the refinery for each team.
Every feedback is welcome.
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Any extra feedback? I know someone mentioning the map seems fun, and yes, that is a glass ceiling. Anything else?
Can someone take the .dem file and turn into an .avi to me?
TF2 has being potato since about three days that A1 came out on the terms of demos.
TF2 has being potato since about three days that A1 came out on the terms of demos.
According to Wilson, this map is bad. Should I scrap this?
If not, what should be improved and how?
If not, what should be improved and how?
I haven't played it, so this is from the screenshots.
- It looks pretty big and open and uninteresting. Snipers can cover that out-of-spawn area really easily.
- The point area is kind of interesting, but far too simple. In addition, the point itself is one of the more powerful places in the room, which you don't usually want. Players capping have the hight advantage.
- Just use the standard healthkits.
I do use the standart health kits, the screenies were taken during a full moon. The screenies are from A2, thought. I'll update them later.
Deodorant
L6: Sharp Member
- Oct 31, 2011
- 263
- 214
I played it last gameday, and I have some negative - but hopefully constructive - feedback.
Firstly, the map feels fundamentally off, scaling and layout-wise. The overall structure is very square and unnatural, and the central room feels like it's designed to house people who are a lot bigger than the players. The map is probably not too big - walking distance- or sightline-wise - but you nevertheless feel dwarfed and out of place when walking around in it.
Secondly, there's very little sense of direction or flow. Almost the entire map is a big square box with random-looking squares and entrances scattered around it. When I played the map, I spent the first few rounds running around haphazardly and shooting people whenever I came across them. Then I figured out that I could bypass a few turns by rocketjumping at the beginning, land in a corridor that the entire enemy team always seemed to use, and spam a bunch of rockets at them until I was dead, and kept doing that for the remaining rounds. Basically, I as a player never got an intuitive feel for which purposes the different routes and area served and how they interacted. The fact that the map starts with a 180 degree turn and subsequently a big square corridor that doesn't offer any alternative routes for non-jump classes didn't help either.
I don't think I can give you any solid advice on how to improve the map, mainly because I'm terrible at this stuff too (If you've played any version of Sanitarium or Crude you'll know), but... Look at Valve-quality maps and think about how they're put together. Consider what each class is looking for when they exit spawn. Look at how indoor and outdoor areas and square and non-square geometry are combined to create organic and natural environments. Look at the sizes of combat areas, the heights of indoor ceilings, the lengths of straight paths, et cetera. And good luck!
Firstly, the map feels fundamentally off, scaling and layout-wise. The overall structure is very square and unnatural, and the central room feels like it's designed to house people who are a lot bigger than the players. The map is probably not too big - walking distance- or sightline-wise - but you nevertheless feel dwarfed and out of place when walking around in it.
Secondly, there's very little sense of direction or flow. Almost the entire map is a big square box with random-looking squares and entrances scattered around it. When I played the map, I spent the first few rounds running around haphazardly and shooting people whenever I came across them. Then I figured out that I could bypass a few turns by rocketjumping at the beginning, land in a corridor that the entire enemy team always seemed to use, and spam a bunch of rockets at them until I was dead, and kept doing that for the remaining rounds. Basically, I as a player never got an intuitive feel for which purposes the different routes and area served and how they interacted. The fact that the map starts with a 180 degree turn and subsequently a big square corridor that doesn't offer any alternative routes for non-jump classes didn't help either.
I don't think I can give you any solid advice on how to improve the map, mainly because I'm terrible at this stuff too (If you've played any version of Sanitarium or Crude you'll know), but... Look at Valve-quality maps and think about how they're put together. Consider what each class is looking for when they exit spawn. Look at how indoor and outdoor areas and square and non-square geometry are combined to create organic and natural environments. Look at the sizes of combat areas, the heights of indoor ceilings, the lengths of straight paths, et cetera. And good luck!
So the to-do list so far is:
-Hint players where to go.
-Basic detail.
-Reduce the height of the glass roof.
-Add extra routes out of spawn.
-Allow players to enter and exit the health are from another way.
-Add cover to spawn ramp.
-More organic-looking stuff.
That's it for A5 .
-Hint players where to go.
-Basic detail.
-Reduce the height of the glass roof.
-Add extra routes out of spawn.
-Allow players to enter and exit the health are from another way.
-Add cover to spawn ramp.
-More organic-looking stuff.
That's it for A5 .
Deodorant
L6: Sharp Member
- Oct 31, 2011
- 263
- 214
While those things sound good, I'm not sure 'hint players where to go' quite covers the lack of direction. It implies - to me at least - something like adding a few arrows and windows. Arrows and windows are good, but I think the map is missing something more fundamental; An inherently instinctive overall design.
Pl_Upward is a great example. The cart path is a 360° spiral that starts at the lowest outermost edge of the mountain and ends at the center/top. The cart always follows a wide, clear main path. More often than not this path is overlooked by sections of high ground - houses, cliffs etc - which are always structured in a way that makes it clear to the players how to get up there. There is an absolute poopload of side paths for flanking and bypassing, and they're all designed to feel like side paths.
It took a very long while before I got the entirety of Upward's layout figured out (and even now it wouldn't surprise me to find yet another sneaky little tunnel somewhere), but I don't think I've ever felt lost while playing the map. If I'm a lone Medic looking for allies I just head down the biggest straightest path, if I'm a roamer Soldier I head for the nearest uphill slope, if I'm a Spy I duck into the first cramped doorway or rickety flight of downward stairs I come across. If I ever find myself wondering where the action is, I just head clockwise/downwards as red or counterclockwise/upwards as blu.
The kind of intuitive readability of a map is of course helped along a great deal by good detailing and signage, but I think it relies on the basic alpha structure and is achieveable using only devtextured chunks of geometry.
Now, I may come across as harsh and I know that you already feel like shit about you mapping skills, but... Well, don't do that. This shit is difficult. I'm bad at it, and I've played on maps made by much better mappers than I that failed to do it as well. Take my thoughts for what you think they are worth and keep doing your best.
Pl_Upward is a great example. The cart path is a 360° spiral that starts at the lowest outermost edge of the mountain and ends at the center/top. The cart always follows a wide, clear main path. More often than not this path is overlooked by sections of high ground - houses, cliffs etc - which are always structured in a way that makes it clear to the players how to get up there. There is an absolute poopload of side paths for flanking and bypassing, and they're all designed to feel like side paths.
It took a very long while before I got the entirety of Upward's layout figured out (and even now it wouldn't surprise me to find yet another sneaky little tunnel somewhere), but I don't think I've ever felt lost while playing the map. If I'm a lone Medic looking for allies I just head down the biggest straightest path, if I'm a roamer Soldier I head for the nearest uphill slope, if I'm a Spy I duck into the first cramped doorway or rickety flight of downward stairs I come across. If I ever find myself wondering where the action is, I just head clockwise/downwards as red or counterclockwise/upwards as blu.
The kind of intuitive readability of a map is of course helped along a great deal by good detailing and signage, but I think it relies on the basic alpha structure and is achieveable using only devtextured chunks of geometry.
Now, I may come across as harsh and I know that you already feel like shit about you mapping skills, but... Well, don't do that. This shit is difficult. I'm bad at it, and I've played on maps made by much better mappers than I that failed to do it as well. Take my thoughts for what you think they are worth and keep doing your best.
Well, the spawn is very bad placed ATM, take a look at lumberyard:
There are so many possibilities, right from the start, without running up a long hill, that is leading all players onto the high path?
There are always very less medkits on arena, and they are almost all on places, where you have to run a risk.
It's not just about looking, but also about feeling.
Ethanol for example is a place that can't barely exist in the real world,
but if you take a look on lumberyard (yes, I like lumberyard) for example,
you can see that there are angels and not just one big square.
This is much more oganic, gameplay and detail wise.
You mad? Why detailing it, if the layout don't even work?
With adding windows, he talked about gameplay windows, for jumping in and out, placing sentrys, sniping, etc.
and not about window props.
Detail in the mean of the flow of the map. The map has no flow, I mean. It just does not feels right.
I also used my own words, should have used other words to explain that.
I also used my own words, should have used other words to explain that.
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