Designing a yard

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by Peligrino, Sep 1, 2010.

  1. Peligrino

    Peligrino L1: Registered

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    So my CP map is close to completion, but I am having trouble designing the 2nd point or the yard. What makes a good yard (along with some map examples from valve maps)?
     
  2. Terwonick

    Terwonick L6: Sharp Member

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    height difference. 2fort: you have the walkway ABOVE the courtyards, and the battlements above the bridge which spans a pond. Well: the middle point is raised. Granary: (not as much) ALL the points can be accessed from above
     
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  3. Peligrino

    Peligrino L1: Registered

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    So what your saying is that the second point should be either higher or lower than the mid?
     
  4. Terwonick

    Terwonick L6: Sharp Member

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    pretty much. though are you talking about a 5cp map?
     
  5. Peligrino

    Peligrino L1: Registered

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    Yep. How about flanking routes or defendable positions, because I've heard things about the 2nd point in granary being camped a lot.
     
  6. Terwonick

    Terwonick L6: Sharp Member

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    not that i know of. but in Well there are 6 entrances into the middle control point. Granary 2nd point has 6, so does the middle. 2fort intel room has 2 entrances. Hydro final captures have countless. Dustbowl stage3point1 has 4 entrances, but they have buildings and such that direct the flow of stuff, so it doesn't seem like there's only 4. It's better to over-do it than to have too few (I don't mean put in 50, maybe 6-8 to start). The biggest factor is the layout. and having multiple entrances on different levels will help keep the map balanced
     
  7. cadeonehalf

    cadeonehalf L1: Registered

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    Here is the best source for 5cp map design:
    Jimmy is Studying 5CP Maps!

    Some things to consider for yards:
    -Are you funneling the attacking team through a chokepoint? Then offer flanking routes to prevent stalemates
    -If you're not creating chokepoints, have lots of entrances for attackers to prevent stalemating.

    Also, is your 5cp map linear (granary) or S-shaped (badlands)?
    That is a big factor in how you want to use yards.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2010
  8. Confidence Man

    Confidence Man L1: Registered

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    Not necessarily, just have different elevations around the point to attack/defend from. All the points in Well, for example, have multiple levels either above or below from which to attack or set up a defense. So does Badlands, Granary (to a lesser extent), Gorge, etc...
     
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  9. Peligrino

    Peligrino L1: Registered

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    Ive read that great article over and over again, and while it describes the certain aspects of yards from certain maps it doesnt really give an overall example. And my map is linear like granary but the mid is inspired by badlands so go figure :O
     
  10. cadeonehalf

    cadeonehalf L1: Registered

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    Well there really isn't an overall example on how to do yards.
    Try creating a yard/2nd cp that avoids common complaints of the official linear maps.
    For example, both Granary and Well have pretty cramped and enclosed second points- maybe design one that's more open?
    As far as yards, Well always had a nice yard in my opinion. Stealthy classes had an alternate path that compensated for the lack of cover in the yard itself, and the flatbed train in the center helps funnel classes towards the mid.

    Granary's yard always bugged me because the alternate entrance from the mid is on the opposite corner of the yard from the alternate entrance to the 2nd point. :O

    Have you designed the 1st/5th cp? What is it like? Usually it's a good idea to change the gameplay around each point so that the map progresses in an interesting fashion.
     
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  11. ricardojvc6

    ricardojvc6 L6: Sharp Member

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    technically, i saw some commentaries here. They are quite handful. To keep on mind yards
    are not very hard to make.. for me the word "Yard" has many diferent word senses. This i can't help cause i dunno what are you reffering too. :(
     
  12. Goombac

    Goombac L4: Comfortable Member

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    You could always just wing it, and try to do the best you can, with some height variations and what you think will make for interesting gameplay and once it goes through playtesting, you can tweak and perfect it.
     
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  13. Peligrino

    Peligrino L1: Registered

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    Alright, I've sort of decided on a layout. Theres gonna be 3 paths into the "yard" from mid, one goes on an elevated higher route, but is quite open. The other main path goes on a longer route into some buildings with a lot of cover, but is a slower route. The alternate route goes on the very side on a very elevated route but is very close quarters. The point itself is in a building, but in a wide open area inside. Geuss you guys will see when the map comes out for testing!
     
  14. Boylee

    aa Boylee pew pew pew

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    A few general guidelines I try to follow:
    • Offer 2.5 routes to any objective. What I've always taken this to mean is that you should offer two main routes, one of which branches near it's conclusion. This isn't a strict rule, sometimes 2 routes or 3 routes are better but be mindful not to funnel players through too few routes or provide way too much choice.

    • Provide high ground, middle ground and low ground. Remember that high ground doesn't necessarily need to be higher, it just needs to offer an advantage in terms of sight-lines or cover. Middle ground is where the bulk of the fighting will occur so there should be cover, health and slight height variations to keep things interesting. Low ground usually offers deep penetration into territory near the objective, offers cover from the high ground but is very easily spammed by players in the middle-ground. This type of route often favours spies, pyros and scouts using ambush / flanking tactics.

    • Make the control point the focal area. The point should draw platers in, they should want to be there. This can be done in a number of ways. For example, making an interesting or nicely detailed structure should encourage players to go to it. Alternatively you can guide players to it with symmetrical route placement that directs players to it (think badlands central cp). In most cases the point should provide a little cover too. Open-sided buildings are often used (sometimes too much) for this purpose as they can provide cover from certain angles but still allow players to be attacked easily from others.

    • Make sure it's balanced for everyone. Make sure that all classes can perform some useful function around the point but try not to make anything overpowered. If there's a great spot to spam rockets / pill grenades onto the point then make sure it's very exposed to sniper fire or allows spies room to manoeuvre behind. Remember to provide alcoves and hidey holes for spies / medics / teleporters. One thing that's often overlooked on 5cp maps is jumping platforms for scouts, they should be able to skirt over the top of the middle ground by skilfully jumping onto rocks and other obstacles.

    • Be careful how you place your health and ammo. small ammo packs should be easy to find around the middle ground as people will need ammo there to fight. Medium ammo and health should be generally placed in spots that attackers and defenders can retreat back to slightly. Large health kits are very powerful and should only be used in places where they are really needed. Generally they are used in places where they have a critical effect. For example if you have a very tight spammable chokepoint a large health on the attackers side may allow them to push through it. Similarly powerful are large ammokits but for different reasons. They attract engies like flies. Place them near locations where engie setups will be most needed to guide your engies to that spot.

    Also, go read grazr's guides, they're excellent. They're also all linked in his sig. ;)
    That's about all the advice I've got without looking at a specific layout.
     
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  15. Terwonick

    Terwonick L6: Sharp Member

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    Thank you Confidence Man for restating most of what I talked about