CP Chateau

[JeanPaul]

Chateau is a 4 CP attack/defend map designed to play like a slightly larger dustbowl. I wanted to come up with a location/theme that isnt seen that often in games and when I remembered that tf2 had some medieval assets I figured why not make a chateau?

The first shot is a view from relatively where blue will spawn at A. Most of the right screen will be filled with chateau once I finish designing D and place it in. I wanted a lot of foreshadowing in this map so when you are at A, you see where C and D is located.

In the second shot, you see the platform A is on. The map is pretty bare but I want to test to see what needs to be added and changed.

The third shot shows B atop a rock spire. I figured since B should be the most played point on the map, I wanted it to be something interesting. On the right is a covered flank for blue to get some vertical advantage.

Screenshot 4 is a back view of B. Red comes from the right and blue comes from the left. Those windows are the choke to C and the next screenshot is a view from inside the choke.

The last shot is C, inside the hallway on the way to final. Behind this point is the choke to D inside the chateau.

Its far from done but I figured Id show it anyways to see what people think. I should have something playable in a few weeks and alpha 1 will be pretty bare but like I said earlier I want to keep it very simple for the first release and see what would work best based off the testing.

 

[Tarry H Sruman]

wow this map looks like it was made by a bunch of losers

 

[GPuzzle]

This map looks freaking sweet.
It kind of looks like a mod for Black Mesa set in an old castle.
I need to stop playing TF2 with friends and actually defeat the Garg at Surface Tension - buggy mortar is buggy.

 

[Penguin]

i'm just confused as to why so many floors are missing. Are they pits?

 

[phi]

I see neat geometry and a whole bunch of sniper sightlines. Just look at screenshot 3, a sniper can sit in that far upper left door and see all the way down the hill, apparently. Neat architecture so far, though.

 

[JeanPaul]

I see neat geometry and a whole bunch of sniper sightlines. Just look at screenshot 3, a sniper can sit in that far upper left door and see all the way down the hill, apparently. Neat architecture so far, though.

Nope, that spot can only cover one of the entrances to the area. The second is out of sight from that door.

i'm just confused as to why so many floors are missing. Are they pits?

Its set on top of a mountain Im thinking. Think thundermountain stage 1

Also tarry has been helping me and giving advice about the layout.

 

[Spacek531]

I smell another imbricatus.

It looks awesome, just like imbricatus did.

 

[Yacan1]

You have a lot of visually striking elements and landmarks which I think will really help in terms of location identification. (fucking rhymes) I like how it looks so far, nice job.

 

[thaumiel]

It's got a spire. Can't be all bad.

 

[JeanPaul]

The map is definitely going to need more cover. I want to emphasize that.

I just want to determine where via testing rather than guessing. (fucking rhymes)

 

[nightwatch]

I flew through your map on the alpha privileges you lent to me ( I promise to use my powers for good, etc)
and this is what I came up with.

First things first. This is the view from where blue's spawn is likely to be, and I can see two overpowered sniper spots right from the beginning. I would hazard a guess that you can draw over 3500 hammer units through at least one of those doors to the end of your displacement ground.

In addition, the entire area feels like a barren expanse, despite the different levels of rocky ground that you have there. I would suggest one of two solutions: either extend the cliff on the left (that your circle building is sitting on) or put a house or something in the middle of the area:

---


Also, you only have two little doors that lead from point A to point B. That might be all right when playing with 7 or 8 other people, but it won't cut it on a 24 slot server and definitely not 32. Something like this might be nice, where only soldiers and demomen can use it to get back to point A, but the attacking team can use it to their hearts' content.

---


Your B point also suffers from sighlines. The best thing to help with this would be the spire, which could be extended to tower a little higher above red, if it was moved over to the left a bit.

I'd like to point out that there are several successful spires in TF2 maps already - Badlands, Gravel Pit, Thunder Mountain, and Hightower to name a few. One of the reasons these are successful is that they tower over the defenders as well as the attackers - the defenders can't simply walk on and block the capture, they have to wind their way around or take explosive damage to reach the top just like Blue. Also, with the exception of Thunder Mountain these spires tend to block a lot of visibility, meaning red must expose themselves if they want a good glimpse at Blu's attacking point, and Blu must expose themselves to determine where Red is holding.
I would suggest something like this, but you really need to give BLU a better place to attack from.

---

One thing you've got to keep in mind is that you really don't want people to be able to snipe from other point areas - it's just not fair or fun at all. Think Randomizer mod where a heavy gets both the sniper rifle and the sticky jumper. Can you imagine how much fun he'd have that round?

That's it for now, ill go over it again after it gets playtested.

 

[JeanPaul]

First things first. This is the view from where blue's spawn is likely to be, and I can see two overpowered sniper spots right from the beginning. I would hazard a guess that you can draw over 3500 hammer units through at least one of those doors to the end of your displacement ground.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/48151262/cp_chateau_a10010e1.jpg

This really confuses me honestly. I have been building this map based on dustbowl, take a look at this:

http://i.imgur.com/unwHKkC.jpg

Is that not way worse? Whats wrong with mine?

In addition, the entire area feels like a barren expanse, despite the different levels of rocky ground that you have there. I would suggest one of two solutions: either extend the cliff on the left (that your circle building is sitting on) or put a house or something in the middle of the area:
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/48151262/cp_chateau_a10010e2.jpg

Sounds good, I had planned on that already

Also, you only have two little doors that lead from point A to point B. That might be all right when playing with 7 or 8 other people, but it won't cut it on a 24 slot server and definitely not 32. Something like this might be nice, where only soldiers and demomen can use it to get back to point A, but the attacking team can use it to their hearts' content.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/48151262/cp_chateau_a10012e.jpg

Dustbowl has three chokes from 1-1 to 1-2 and mine is 2 but I originally had three. I definitely like this idea and I will use it. I might have it a little closer to B though.

Your B point also suffers from sighlines. The best thing to help with this would be the spire, which could be extended to tower a little higher above red, if it was moved over to the left a bit.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/48151262/cp_chateau_a10013e.jpg
I'd like to point out that there are several successful spires in TF2 maps already - Badlands, Gravel Pit, Thunder Mountain, and Hightower to name a few. One of the reasons these are successful is that they tower over the defenders as well as the attackers - the defenders can't simply walk on and block the capture, they have to wind their way around or take explosive damage to reach the top just like Blue. Also, with the exception of Thunder Mountain these spires tend to block a lot of visibility, meaning red must expose themselves if they want a good glimpse at Blu's attacking point, and Blu must expose themselves to determine where Red is holding.
I would suggest something like this, but you really need to give BLU a better place to attack from.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/48151262/cp_chateau_a10013e2.jpg

Okay so this is a little confusing to me because these are only sightlines if you are hovering out over the end of the map about 200-300 units above actual place space. Take a look at the view of B from the top level entrance and the bottom level entrance:

top
http://i.imgur.com/lQvn5W3.jpg

Definitely still have some sightlines here but I planned on adding some stuff to remove them for a1, so good call there. But now look at the lower entrance to the area

http://i.imgur.com/bU5hJDl.jpg

All three sightlines gone. So should I still make the spire a little larger? Move it?

One thing you've got to keep in mind is that you really don't want people to be able to snipe from other point areas - it's just not fair or fun at all. Think Randomizer mod where a heavy gets both the sniper rifle and the sticky jumper. Can you imagine how much fun he'd have that round?
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/48151262/cp_chateau_a10014e.jpg
That's it for now, ill go over it again after it gets playtested.

Trust me there are more arena to arena sightlines than this, I know how completely game breaking they are and had plans on removing all of them before a1 release

Thank you for your help as well.

 

[ForbiddenDonut]

This really confuses me honestly. I have been building this map based on dustbowl, take a look at this:

http://i.imgur.com/unwHKkC.jpg

Is that not way worse? Whats wrong with mine?

For the record, when it comes to balanced gameplay, I would not pick anything from Dustbowl. Dustbowl is a horrid, chokey mess (Unless you use it for a 'what not to do,' which it seems in some ways you have - Chateau looks much more open and free).

Dustbowl's 1-1's sniper platform is well-exposed and well-illuminated. The sniper area that Nightwatch has pointed out is dark, protected and still has the height advantage. There's also behind space in that area to allow ambush classes to gib a sniper. Not so much in your case.

Your differences in terrain height are also not steep enough to give BLU the extra cover. In Dustbowl 1-1, the middle trench can actually protect from oncoming fire because it's low enough (that's also why it's curvacious down there). Anyone coming around that corner in your map is probably dead fodder, so I think a small house or blocking structure would do well there (there's one for that exact reason in Dustbowl 1-1 off to the right of the picture you linked).

Throw up for a gameday before you do any major changes, but I have a feeling that snipers are going to love your map, and a good sniper is going to ruin it. Especially point B. Jesus. I need binoculars for that point.

 

[nightwatch]

http://i.imgur.com/unwHKkC.jpg

Is that not way worse? Whats wrong with mine?

The two little doors you refer to are a bit different. Because of the placement of the buildings, only the one on the right is of any use to stay in and snipe from, and your angle is pretty much restricted to the lower attacking channel, which isn't used nearly as much as the two upper routes.
Your map isn't divided into 3 channels the way dustbowl is, and a sniper sitting at the back is going to have greater control of the battlefield because there isnt a gigantic building in the way. A sniper sitting at the back of Dustbowl (but not in the doorways) can be quite powerful, but it leaves the sniper much more vulnerable to spam and flanking. That can't happen on your map because of the bridge/connector thing which shelters the defending team from jumpers.

top
http://i.imgur.com/lQvn5W3.jpg

Definitely still have some sightlines here but I planned on adding some stuff to remove them for a1, so good call there. But now look at the lower entrance to the area

http://i.imgur.com/bU5hJDl.jpg

All three sightlines gone. So should I still make the spire a little larger? Move it?

I think you're right here, the sightlines aren't going to be as much of a problem if you keep the elevation the same. I'd say leave the spire the way it is for now, you can change it if playtests show it isn't any good.
Don't make me post my elevation image....

 

[JeanPaul]

How does this look?

 

[Sergis]

i find the diagonal looking spire's texturing looking too oddly diagonalized for my tastes. consider straightening that thing out unless of course it is that way on purpose

 

[PHISH]

people seem to be obsessed about sniper sightlines thinking that if a long one exists it's automatically a problem. If it's a long sightline AND it's wide it's a problem, if it's long but very narrow it's not overpowered and you can easily have those in your maps without problems. Basically, how easy is the shot made in that sightline.

 

[tyler]

I like the cliff texture being angled. It makes the vista a bit more eye-catching, as well as creates a natural path for your eyes to follow that isn't just up/down or left/right.