Attack and Defend Experiment

[MrAlBobo]

So...this is not a map per say...but rather several unusual attack and defend scenarios I want to experiment with to see if they can be viable, put into the format of a multistage map. Thought of of these when I was really bored at work one night (no customers for 2 hours <_< ).

Test 1: Run the Gauntlet
This is a really simple concept, the attacking team has amazing disadvantages for about a 10 second walk (as pyro) then a relatively easy cap. This was also intended as a mapping refresher as I haven't mapped for quite a long time.

Threw this together in about 2 hours and in theory its ready for testing. I think the dangerous position is a reasonable distance for the blue team, and it may or may not be lengthened. Not sure about the flanking path for defenders as it might be used as an effective sentry point to guard the point...which I do not really want. I give this about 75% chance of being successful.

Test 2: Defense at a Distance
The goal in this one is to have a cp at the bottom of a very difficult to get out of hole in the ground. The unusual gameplay I am trying to create with this is to make it dangerous for both teams to directly defend the point, thus forcing more ranged defense and attempts to setup at an area away from the point. For the blue team it should force one of 2 things, an attempt to completely annihilate the defending team or to split into a capture team and a distraction team. This one does not have a mockup in hammer yet. I give this one about a 60% chance of success.

Test 3: Underwater Field
This is meant to promote mostly underwater combat around the point, then landbased combat at more distant places. The point will be on a small island with absolutely no place to put an effective sentry on land. The flaw I can see is difficulty entering a sentry defended field of water. I give this a 50% chance of succeeding.

Test 4: How did you get here?
I intend to have the cp placed far above both teams, on some type of bridge or arch (think ctf_arch?), the more immediate access is placed slightly closer to reds side. The twist is that there is only one "obvious" path to the cp and it will be placed in such a way that the red and blue teams are forced to meet in bulk at a place other then the cp. This "should" promote a gameplay that produces a battle focus somewhere other then around the cp. Im playing around with the idea of making the point heavily fortified or weakly fortified, I want it too be highly unlikely for a soldier or demo to jump up and take the point, but at the same time, if its too fortified then the red team will just move there... I give this a 70% chance if i can get the balance right.

Test 5: Two points?
With this one I want to create a very heavily fortified position near enough to a point that sentries can shoot down off the roof. This point will then have next to no defenses except for this very effective position. So the attacking team will need to take out the other building before they can take the point. If the red team knows what they are doing I give this a 75% chance of success.


So...questions? advice, perhaps some suggestions for a 6th test, as I want to even this out. The most effective of these will be included into my dustbowl type attack and defend map. Ive only got one round planned so far

 

[Username]

So, the way I read it, the Guantlet will be like cap 1 round 3 of Dustbowl?

 

[GrimGriz]

Dynamic Attack

Something that came to mind while doing what I did with dustribute is the idea of multiple routes to a point that must be bombed open (intel capture causes explosion). BLU would get to choose which of say 3 routes to explode open, which would make the gameplay a lot more variable than a standard map...and possibly add to it's replay value. Plus, explosions are cool.

 

[Uriak]

I've created something near your Defense at a Distance concept in cp_casablanca. Both CP A and B are placed at the bottom, surrounded by walkables roofs. I've added most health and ammo packs in the lower levels.
The result plays quite nicely. Red have to go down to effectively block any capture, but for both teams, having people staying on the roofs is a good option.

I also tryed your fifth test case, Two points. In that same map, the last point is in a relatively open space, with little sentry and covers. Then on one side of the CP spot is a building that gives a great position both for offense and defence. To get in it you have a tower with circular stairs, and easy access for both teams. It works nicely too.



This experiment is a good idea. Too much maps rely on the same concepts, and the payload blossom is slowly creating a sense of boredom among our players. Keep the good work

 

[MrAlBobo]

So, the way I read it, the Guantlet will be like cap 1 round 3 of Dustbowl?

no...if you really must compare it to dustbowl it would be most like the 1st round, 1st point with only one exit at the bottom of the crevice

Grim...This is only going to be cp based...as I find ctf very boring to begin with. And, since im trying to isolate every result there will only be one cp in each round...at least to begin with.

I've created something near your Defense at a Distance concept in cp_casablanca. Both CP A and B are placed at the bottom, surrounded by walkables roofs. I've added most health and ammo packs in the lower levels.
The result plays quite nicely. Red have to go down to effectively block any capture, but for both teams, having people staying on the roofs is a good option.

Nice, ill have to check that out, by no means did I expect every idea i had to be completely new

I also tryed your fifth test case, Two points. In that same map, the last point is in a relatively open space, with little sentry and covers. Then on one side of the CP spot is a building that gives a great position both for offense and defence. To get in it you have a tower with circular stairs, and easy access for both teams. It works nicely too.

This one was actually a bit of an oddball out of these tests as this one I tried to use on a map I was working on way back, but the map never got off the ground so to speak.

I think ill start work on the structure of test 4 next, it seems to me that this one will be one of the more interesting ones...also the most difficult to explain without pics.

 

[GrimGriz]

Grim...This is only going to be cp based...as I find ctf very boring to begin with. And, since im trying to isolate every result there will only be one cp in each round...at least to begin with.

That makes me think you didn't quit get what I was trying to suggest.

In the attached picture, the black boxes start off destroyable via trigger...whether that is triggered by blu taking the intel that spawns with them in their base to the black box, or you let them shoot it.. no difference.

When one of the black boxes is destroyed however, they other 2 become indestructible. Every time this round is played, BLU picks a path by destroying a black box.

For an example round, the blu team attacks hard to left while they send the guy with the bomb to the right. The bomb goes off, and red team has to hustle to the point to not get scout-capped.

The idea really has nothing to do with multiple CPs or CTF...save that having the briefcase act as the wall destroying bomb seems to be pretty easy for players to grasp.

 

[Spartacus]

Grim...This is only going to be cp based...as I find ctf very boring to begin with.

Couldn't you do the multi pathway map avanti-style? Ferry the intel to whichever point you want to cap, one route might be easier to cap initially but a longer route to the next set of caps, another capture area is at a better defensive position but once taken the next capture becomes much easier due to height advantage, respawn locations, etc.

Having to capture a set number of points (4 for Avantiville), but having a choice of which points you can capture to count as point 1, point 2, etc. could cause interesting effects on the scoring as well - each capture point could be worth a different amount of points, causing a change in offensive/defensive strategies. It'd be somewhat similar to Steel - you need to cap the last point to get a set amount of points (5), but if C and D were worth two points a piece a team could focus on getting those points first to have more points than the other team after two rounds - first team captured A, B, E for (1 + 1 + 1 = 3, capturing E guarantees 5) 5 points, second team captures A, B, C, D for (1 + 1 + 2 + 2 = 6) 6 points. It'd change the focus from defending the final point at all costs and sending people to stop the captures of other points to deciding if you want to minimize points gained from outside CPs and stopping them at the final point, to trying to hold them at the outside CPs.

Steel isn't the best map for this, because of trying to stop the rocket as an objective and the benefits gained from capping each point, but say you turned the intel into a bomb and BLU was trying to sow as much havoc as possible in RED's base - BLU could get more points for blowing up the giant missiles as opposed to the barracks, etc. Blowing up the barracks would make it easier to get to say, the control room (final point), but blowing up the missile silos gives you more points in the short run.

 

[Mar]

I don't think 2 points and underwater defense will work.

Unless there is cover, or the visibility in water is near zero, sentries are remarkable easy to destroy, since water provide zero cover and a long range of sight.

2 points doesn't seem that good, since one "spot" doesn't really bode well for the other 8 classes, and it probably won't be too fun for them.

EDIT: Cool to see the experimentation. Will run the gauntlet have a cap time like the final point on badlands? And maybe make it out of spawn, a dangerous 10 second run, then a quick health break (maybe a hut?) another 5 second run, and then the CP?

 

[MrAlBobo]

Couldn't you do the multi pathway map avanti-style? Ferry the intel to whichever point you want to cap, one route might be easier to cap initially but a longer route to the next set of caps, another capture area is at a better defensive position but once taken the next capture becomes much easier due to height advantage, respawn locations, etc.

sigh...2 things...no intel...and only one point is going to occur in one round

And grim...if you remove the intel it still wouldn't really work with the concept of only one cp. Your idea would be more suited towards a full round with 2 or more cps...which if i do try, will be once ive got all the others done

I don't think 2 points and underwater defense will work.

Unless there is cover, or the visibility in water is near zero, sentries are remarkable easy to destroy, since water provide zero cover and a long range of sight.

2 points doesn't seem that good, since one "spot" doesn't really bode well for the other 8 classes, and it probably won't be too fun for them.

EDIT: Cool to see the experimentation. Will run the gauntlet have a cap time like the final point on badlands? And maybe make it out of spawn, a dangerous 10 second run, then a quick health break (maybe a hut?) another 5 second run, and then the CP?

believe me the last thing ill be worried about is sentries being destroyed too easily, the water will not be a large open expanse but will have the same amount of cover a normal level would have

think of 2 points this way, the defensive position will be a very easily defensible building placed beside a very poorly defended point, the building will provide all the cover the point needs, so the red team, instead of defending the point will focus on defending the building, but as always, this is just theory which is why im doing the tests

the edit info is quite interesting and gives me some more ideas to work with to balance it out

 

[GrimGriz]

So...questions? advice, perhaps some suggestions for a 6th test

And grim...if you remove the intel it still wouldn't really work with the concept of only one cp. Your idea would be more suited towards a full round with 2 or more cps...which if i do try, will be once ive got all the others done

Just giving a suggestion and making sure you knew where I was coming from trying to help. It was more of a brainstorming suggestion than something I thought fit your idea perfectly, but I thought it might get you or other suggesters thinking.

 

[MrAlBobo]

heh...i was in game while answering alot of these so I tended to make my responses a bit abrupt, I have no problem with suggestions its just some simply are not viable with what I am doing

 

[Uriak]

Did you consider an inverted test for your 4th case ? In spirits, I would like to make a subaquatic CP with a surrounding land battlezone. May be more in the taste of your 3rd case.

 

[MrAlBobo]

Did you consider an inverted test for your 4th case ? In spirits, I would like to make a subaquatic CP with a surrounding land battlezone. May be more in the taste of your 3rd case.

hmm...can you explain how you would invert it? there are so many ways that could be interpreted...

and im not sure what you mean in the 2nd part