A Letter to the Community

[Rexy]

I think the largest problem with helping new mappers is that when they throw up screenshots of a map it's barely got any more than a days work and consists of a few walls, corridors and generic structures. The trouble with this is that it's hard to criticise this beyond a patronising "try harder". What i mean by this is, if i went to my lecturer and asked for help and had minimal work, is all i would get is "do more work and come back in a week". Because there's hardly anything to guide me on. He doesn't know where i want to go with my work or even where i could go with what i have; because the possibilities are endless. He doesn't want a whole lot, but anything more would give him idea's on possible resolutions.

the fact that the better mappers get the most feedback is undeniable, and yes it is kinda irritating, but it does kinda make sense, most people here give feedback solely on visuals (primarily due to checking gameplay with a playtest is difficult), and the better mappers tend to provide better visuals to comment on, and some people go and search for little visual errors as well. Actually...to a large margin this is not the communities fault, when a server admin is looking for new maps they look at the screenshots because...well...its just more practical to do then test every map. So the maps with better visuals will get more server time, which means they will be playtested more and so they will get more comments. From experience its difficult to playtest a rather new map.

I think you're right that the better mappers get more feedback, but not for the reasons you're thinking of.
- The better mappers are the ones who get their arse in gear and actually manage to get testing - we offer a full server usually every other week for playtesting which can have any map submitted to it no matter what the quality. I notice a lot of the not so good mappers don't ever submit their map for gameday.
- The better mappers are more able to make something exciting, which in turn gets people excited and then they're more willing to play the map. (you can't blame anyone for this)
- Providing feedback for the better mappers is easier since you don't have to explain as many basic concepts, and people are lazy.

In response to these statements I'd like to throw out what I feel is an exception, since it seems that everyone has been saying similar things.

I had the WIP thread for zig up since the 27th of December (that was the during the beta 2 I believe), and with the exception of Immortal-D, I didn't have any feedback whatsoever, until the first gameday it was in. Even then, I had only a handful of replies for it, from other people who were in my same position (and I'm specifically referring to Ravidge, and Lepock, since they were the only people ON the server that gameday when we played my map. Everyone else who could have given really good and expert feedback left after half-acre, frontier and cashworks had already been played). After that, my WIP thread turned into a discussion on FPSB and how much they suck (which they do), and then about lightmap scales because some few were crashing on my map. But overall, I didn't really get any feedback--and my situation matched a lot of those reasons the three of you mentioned in my quoted sections above.

So I'd have to argue here that those who already have attention here at TF2maps.net are the ones who get attention. I had nearly 70 percent of the work done at that time, and great screenshots for people to see and plenty of reasons to download and give feedback. I must admit that I didn't have my WIP posted as early as the other submissions, but it was still plenty of time to give feedback, especially because the majority of changes vital to the success of the map happened between beta 3 and 6. That's when I really could have used the most help.

Here's my WIP thread if anyone would like to go over what's been said. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone, I just tend to agree with a lot of the reasons why this thread exists.

http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=4689

 

[MrAlBobo]

hmm...i swear i mentioned something like that, or at least intended to...
people are always going to be more interested in quality, quality shows up in a number of ways, through exellent visuals, perhaps a very good game, or because that person has produced quality work in the past, and there's not a damn thing you can do about that, other then keep producing until enough people take notice that they follow your map

and anyways...I haven't played your map enough times to give any kind of worthwhile gameplay feedback (the only type i give), I could make some guesses based on what ive seen, but thats about it

I tried to get some more time in on all the maps today but the server was irritating me far too much. Between the people constantly trying to rtv and the people bitching about "we've already played this map" when the rtv they started goes bad, or switching the map after the strict self-imposed deadline of "two rounds". Not to mention the lag... So eventually, I just left, I had enough.

 

[Rexy]

Yeah I had heard that there were some major complaints with rtv. Immortal removed it, right?

 

[TMP]

There is no more rtv in the testing server now.

 

[cornontheCoD]

I wouldn't agree that the more you test the map on gameday, the more feedback you get. I realize that the payload contest was going on at the time, but I had my map(cp_timber) on EVERY GAMEDAY from a1 to a5. So I literally had a new alpha of my map on gameday, every gameday. I have only 3 pages on my WIP thread, mostly from my posts about a new version being up. Most of the playtests had a near-full server, so I don't know what else I could have done to get more feedback. I will try to ask for feedback in the chat once I release b1.

I am not blaming anyone in particular, I just thought it has to do with this subject, and that getting your map on gameday isnt a sure-fire way to get tons of feedback

 

[MrAlBobo]

precisely, gameday is not enough time to get quality feedback, all you can really gain out of gameday is a brief scope of possible changes to be made, in my opinion you need a solid hour minimum of testing, this gives everyone a chance to try several different classes in several different situations. And this is something we need to find a way to introduce, without a need to rely on external resources. I mean, thinking of corns map...ive played it, i can remember the layout of the map, but I am simply unable to think of a way to give any feedback on the gameplay. Where as with nine's map, which i played at one point for 3 consecutive hours i can think of various points in the map where it was fun to play as one class, some areas that were not as fun, along with recognizing where something needs to be changed to alter the gameplay.

 

[Termaximus]

Overall, I think this is a great thread and it finally pointed out the big elephant in the room. All I ask is that you guys keep this conversation civil so I dont have to lock the thread.

I was hesitant to post this thread and I am glad it has gone into a relatively positive direction despite some real issues surfacing. I think also that everyone, even if they are arguing differant sides, does indicate they want to improve the community. :thumbup:

Just to summarize some of what has been discussed for those new to thread:

1. There is some consensus that while nobody is intentionally trying to be elitist, some actions by members sometimes are perceived as elitist by others. Those with more experience may want to be careful when dealing with newer and perhaps more sensitive mappers. On the flip side, newer mappers need to try not to take criticism personally because in general the person giving it is just trying to be helpful.

2. More established mappers get the most feedback on their new projects. Just surf the WIPs and you will see this. There is general consensus that the more experienced mappers just know how to "do" a WIP better, but also that we need to make a better effort as a community to help and motivate the newbies.

3. Gamedays may need some reorganization. Perhaps certain gamedays should be for alphas, betas, or near finals only? That way those playing maps that day know what to expect. Perhaps at least one or two of the great mappers can rotate saturdays so all tested maps can get feedback from an expert? I suggest we start a new thread to discuss this.

Those who have not chimed in, what are you thoughts on 1, 2, or 3?

 

[zpqrei]

I haven't had my say on the matter yet so I'll see what slant I can see on this whole thing.

1. There is some consensus that while nobody is intentionally trying to be elitist, some actions by members sometimes are perceived as elitist by others. Those with more experience may want to be careful when dealing with newer and perhaps more sensitive mappers. On the flip side, newer mappers need to try not to take criticism personally because in general the person giving it is just trying to be helpful.

I, as a new mapper, never really got this. Sure, the occational harsh comment but nothing big. Maybe this is because I only really browse the forums and I'm a regular in the chat. I find that you get loads of awesome feedback (and few harsh comments) in the chat.

2. More established mappers get the most feedback on their new projects. Just surf the WIPs and you will see this. There is general consensus that the more experienced mappers just know how to "do" a WIP better, but also that we need to make a better effort as a community to help and motivate the newbies.

Yes. This is true. But I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree. But remember, all these mappers were new once. They had to have a big *OMFGWOW* to show other people just how good they are. I think that's why I'm refraining from posting a WIP thread. I know it's not good enough for a *OMFGWOW*.

3. Gamedays may need some reorganization. Perhaps certain gamedays should be for alphas, betas, or near finals only? That way those playing maps that day know what to expect. Perhaps at least one or two of the great mappers can rotate saturdays so all tested maps can get feedback from an expert? I suggest we start a new thread to discuss this.

I personally think this is a wonderful idea. I only see one flaw. If the gameday is spread out then we may only have 3-4 people per map. Sure, the big maps (purely as an example; pl_frontier) will have a full server but a lowly first alpha ctf map will have the map maker and some TF2-styled tumbleweed.

Meh. My $0.02.

zpqrei

 

[Radenska]

There is one aspect of mapping that I think gets overlooked in the majority of threads here, and that's level design from a gameplay perspective. It sounds odd because that should be a main focus above all else, but I seem to notice it regardless. This forum is fantastic for technical help, and everyone happily comments on aesthetics, but with the vast combined knowledge we share as TF2 PLAYERS I'm always surprised at the minimal amount of feedback given about how an area will play in a map.

Of course you need to have tests on populated servers to flesh out areas, but we DO all know simple facts like "you should keep routes as linear as possible, save big open areas for around cap points," etc. and I feel new, less experienced mappers are not getting this crucial information in the quantity they should, from the more experienced mappers.

Game play always should come first - you can't accurately judge a game by its cover. Then again, these are video-games, so visuals are meant to carry a certain amount of intrigue, get peoples' attention and be willing to host it on a server. At the same rate, there is a lot of designer documents on Valve's wiki as well as advice/tips threads all over this site and others that suggest what works and what doesn't work. I feel it's a mapper's, regardless of experience, responsibility to research what is appropriate for the kind of map they want to make. Asking for advice is totally fine, and encouraged, but the crucial information people need on that sort of thing is available. Perhaps we just need a page dedicated to prep-work. Even better, a feature that when a person first signs up for this site, they're given a link on "where to start" like a library. If they know they're way around Source anyways, they can just ignore it and no one's to blame.

These services are all free anyways...it's a privilege to have this community around really.

 

[Tinker]

Yes. This is true. But I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree. But remember, all these mappers were new once. They had to have a big *OMFGWOW* to show other people just how good they are. I think that's why I'm refraining from posting a WIP thread. I know it's not good enough for a *OMFGWOW*.

This is not a good thing. People should be encouraged to post their maps when they're pretty far in and can show something, even if it's not groundshaking. The vicious circle of unknown mapper -> no feedback -> no improvements -> no great maps -> unknown mapper should be broken.

 

[Pink_Panther]

I thought I would chime in with some help to the situation. Being one of the newer people, i originally didnt want to say much because I haven't seen enough to make a good point either way. But, since I have been mapping longer than some people have been alive (at least looking through the 'introduce yourself' section), I think I have some perspective that may help.

The people running the site are really pressed for their volunteer time and can only do so much. Most of the comments I am seeing here are asking for play time or feedback. So, I will offer up my experiance for both of these things.

I have a personnal server I which I am more than happy to turn on from time to time and let you get some server time. You find the people and I will set up the server. It will support 8 players without an issue, i may be able to squeeze out 10. Havent tested 10 yet. I will post in the events section more details. (added note: after checking, i cant post in the events section...so i will figure something out)

Secondly, if you want a detailed feedback on a map, email at postaudioguy@yahoo.com or private message me with a link to the map. (hopefully the emails wont autofilter into the spam box). I will run though the map and give feedback on player movement flow, assess the team balance, extra mapping details, texture choice and alignments, and a basic appeal level of how much I would want to play the map. I am brutally honest and will call it how I see it. I will use my mapping skill as a basis for all my evaluations. Im not the best mapper, but it gives a consistant basis to go by and something for you to understand what my statements will mean. If its crap, i will say so. If its better than what I can do, I will say that.

If you want me to look through an hammer file, i will do that too.

Hopefully this helps.

Phil

 

[zpqrei]

This is not a good thing. People should be encouraged to post their maps when they're pretty far in and can show something, even if it's not groundshaking. The vicious circle of unknown mapper -> no feedback -> no improvements -> no great maps -> unknown mapper should be broken.

Yeah. I totally agree. I was looking from the point of the the newb.