[WIP] CTF_Boats

[Ida]

I want to tell you a bit about a map that I've been (slowly) working on for the last four months or so. It's the first map I've EVER made in Hammer. Don't worry, though, I AM making sure that the map will play relatively bug-free and fun when it's out. Anyway, it's called Boats (ctf_boats) - that was only intended to be a working name, though; as soon as I can get something better, I will change (so I'm open to suggestions!).

Boats is a CTF map with a slight twist. Not a twist in the actual CTF rules - you still cap the intelligence normally - but a twist in how you get from base to base. The bases are small, and between them, there is a big body of water. This water is toxic, so as soon as you get below the surface, you'll take serious damage. The only other way over to the enemy base is by riding a boat. It's not player controlled, it just takes laps between the two bases on its own.

The fact that you pretty much HAVE to take the boat over the water should give you a whole different way to play, I believe. Of course, I've taken note of problems such as players becoming impossible to catch up with once they are on the boat (I've made "checkpoints" where someone can catch up to the boat on foot), as well as the problem with Sniper-fests due to how open the middle of the map is (basically, I have a crapload of cover, and it seems to work ok).

I can't show any screenshots yet as it's currently pre-alpha (yes, I'm that slow), but I will update this topic as soon as it looks good enough to show off. All my sketches are on paper, which I can't scan due to lack of a functioning scanner. Sorry, you'll have to live with text for now.

So, does it sound interesting? Anything you're wondering about? Just ask!

EDIT: Screenshots and overview!

First, the overview...

Here are some screenshots of the pre-alpha version. YES I KNOW THE LIGHTS ARE HORRIBLE. It's pretty hard to get it right, and of course I will continue to make it better.

First off - the very exciting spawn room! I've taken note of the odd-looking doors (by that, I mean the little machine thingy that should be connected to the ceiling), they'll be fixed.

A sneak peek into the intel room. I forgot to take screens of the room itself, doh. (Not that exciting anyway)

The first floor. To the left is a window showing a "secret" room for rocket storage/launching, which has been sloppily hidden. It's just for decoration, though, you can't go there. I've been thinking that all these wooden boards are a bit excessive, but we'll see what I do with them. What looks like a ramp (by the intel sign) is actually a staircase to the second floor. I am aware that the battlements signs are floating off the wall, it's fixed now.

A view out on the battlements, from the room shown in the second picture. It's the Sniper balcony of this map. You can rocket jump up here, and double jump too if you jump from a stack of barrels and land precisely on the metal cover down there.

This is the base from the outside. The window to the right is where I stood in the last picture. That's a truck to the left, for cover and decoration. The entrance is mostly hidden by the metal cover.

The boat. Note the toxic sign. The board next to the sign is messed up for some reason, fixing it as we speak.

Inside the boat. It's small. Does that barrel with the sign on look ok to you guys? :/

The checkpoint house. The boat will stop here as well. It's that big purely for extra cover.

 

[Nineaxis]

Stickies + Boat = No chance of escape.

 

[Ida]

You can always kill the Demoman, you know. He has to be right next to the boat in order to know when someone enters it, so he's never out of reach. It's not like he can stand back and wait for the announcer to tell him when to detonate, like he can do on CP maps.

EDIT: Plus, if someone gets killed by stickies in the boat, the intelligence will stay there and travel over to the other side (I fear I may encounter lots of bugs with this, but I'll try my best), which should solve the problem with people blocking the boat in general.

 

[Nineaxis]

Yeah, but depending on boat speed/distance it travels, it might not be that hard to estimate when the enemy carrying the intel is on the boat from the time the intel is picked up.

Also, if the boat carries the intel over, wouldn't that just set the stage for kamikaze scout rushes, because as long as the intel gets on the boat, they can camp the other end and run it into their base?

I'm not trying to be rude about this or say it won't work, I think it is a neat concept. Just some balance issues to consider.

 

[Ida]

Hm, yeah, I understand. Thanks for the comments, sorry if I sounded a bit ticked off or something, I didn't mean to. >.>

Anyway, that's something I guess I'll have to consider when the map is working (and the boats are moving) - I can probably fix it somehow if it proves to be problematic.

EDIT: Oh, and here's another counter to the Demoman problem:
There is a little "hut" on the boat, in which you're supposed to stand (you can stand on the outside too, but prepare to be sniped if you try that...). If the Demoman wants to put stickies inside, he actually has to go into the boat, and since it takes several seconds to put down stickies, he may very well be too far on his way to the other side when he's done, which usually means he's in trouble.

The Scout kamikaze thing is still a good point, though, but believe me, it will not be easy to camp the enemy's side unless you have a huge team to escort one or two Engineers to set up sentries pretty darn quickly.

 

[Nineaxis]

Well, I guess it depends which side the door for the hut is on. if it is opposite the dock, there shouldn't be any issue, since the demo man can't get in there and the walls shield sticky blast if they are layed on the floor of the boat.

Wouldn't be worried about camping the enemy side, but their own. Once the intel is on the boat, it's basically being brought directly to them, right? I was thinking more along the line of scouts bringing it out to the boat and having it be carried across even if they die, rather than camping the enemy docks.

 

[Ida]

Oh, I guess I misunderstood what you said about camping. Yeah, I get what you mean now. That may be a big problem. You know what, I'll make the intel stay on the boat for the first beta, and see if that works. If not, I'll try something else.

I've made an overview of the map in Paint, by the way, and I've taken some screenshots. I'll add them to the first post in a minute.

 

[MangyCarface]

Stickies cannot be put on brush entities, so the demoman shouldn't be able to camp the boat at all.

Your map looks cool but you need to limit the amount of windows. Windows are bitches for optimization and sometimes aren't necessary at all. Try rethinking them.

 

[Ida]

Ah, I didn't know that. That's good news, actually, solves that problem completely.

Thanks for the window tip too, I'll try to remove/change what I can, though most of them are almost necessary for gameplay/decoration.

 

[YM]

oh teh noes!
You've used prop_dynamic for just about all your props!!!!!!
go change them now!

• The lockers (not the resupply ones)
• any signs that don't change colour
• the benches in spawn
• the hydro corrugated metal cover things
• the barrels
• the death sign
• the lights? (hard to tell if they are static or not)

Basicly: if the prop never changes thoughout the course of the game (so if it doesnt have an animation or it doesn't change skin) it should be a prop_static.
And I really REALLY hope the pannels across that window (the higgledy-piggledy ones) are all func_details - if they are not you will be neednessly increasing complile times and throwing masses of FPS out the window (yeah, that pun was intentional )
Also looks like all your signs are floating a few units off the walls...... decrease the grid size and put them flush with the walls like they should be!
Increase the water texture scale to make it look a bit better (in the texture application thing, change X: 0.25 to 0.5 or 0.75ish - change the Y value to the same as well)

 

[Nineaxis]

It seems like pretty much every prop is floating... whether it be off the wall or floor.

I see that the boats are both running on one circle... what happens when they crash into eachother?

 

[Ace]

I guess if the boats are automatic they will never crash as they will always be half a rotation apart.

I'm pretty sure I have read a post somewhere saying that water looks best (and was designed) to be stretched to 1.00.

The diagonal intel sign along the side of the stairs just looks wrong to be, imo you should make it flat or get rid of it.

Class balancing - evil but necessary, don't give one class the edge or it will ruin the map.

Overall the idea is sound and it looks nice, I am just concerned of.
A) Snipers
B) Spamming the exit point of the boat - demo could easily do this then watch from behind cover, or an engie setting up behind something but in view of the boat exit so he mows down everybody as they get off the boat. They won't even be able to run away as the water will kill them.

 

[MangyCarface]

Prop_statics still have inputs to change skin, so just worry about animated props.

 

[Ravidge]

I've never been a fan of maps that limit or forces my movement (one-way doors is fine), so I'll be interested to see how you handle this map. Will it be possible to rocketjump between the checkpoints?

I don't know... at the moment it feel like a little-more-advanced-than-ordinary sniper map.

 

[Ida]

oh teh noes!
You've used prop_dynamic for just about all your props!!!!!!
go change them now!

• The lockers (not the resupply ones)
• any signs that don't change colour
• the benches in spawn
• the hydro corrugated metal cover things
• the barrels
• the death sign
• the lights? (hard to tell if they are static or not)

Basicly: if the prop never changes thoughout the course of the game (so if it doesnt have an animation or it doesn't change skin) it should be a prop_static.
And I really REALLY hope the pannels across that window (the higgledy-piggledy ones) are all func_details - if they are not you will be neednessly increasing complile times and throwing masses of FPS out the window (yeah, that pun was intentional )
Also looks like all your signs are floating a few units off the walls...... decrease the grid size and put them flush with the walls like they should be!
Increase the water texture scale to make it look a bit better (in the texture application thing, change X: 0.25 to 0.5 or 0.75ish - change the Y value to the same as well)

Aw, crap, you've got to be kidding. :X

Well, thanks for letting me know anyway, I guess I'll better go change everything to prop_static then. Actually, the lights are prop_static, but that was something I did by "accident".

The boards are...ahem...just brushes.
I'll change that too.

I noticed the sign problem, I moved them closer just after I took the shot.

And finally - I'll remember to change the textures too. Thanks for all the tips.

It seems like pretty much every prop is floating... whether it be off the wall or floor.

I see that the boats are both running on one circle... what happens when they crash into eachother?

I'm sure most of them are not floating. Perhaps it looks like it because of the textures or something? I dunno. I'll double check, though.
EDIT: The chalkboard is floating, by the way. It has already been fixed.

The boats don't crash. They travel at the same speed, and pass by eachother.

I guess if the boats are automatic they will never crash as they will always be half a rotation apart.

I'm pretty sure I have read a post somewhere saying that water looks best (and was designed) to be stretched to 1.00.

The diagonal intel sign along the side of the stairs just looks wrong to be, imo you should make it flat or get rid of it.

Class balancing - evil but necessary, don't give one class the edge or it will ruin the map.

Overall the idea is sound and it looks nice, I am just concerned of.
A) Snipers
B) Spamming the exit point of the boat - demo could easily do this then watch from behind cover, or an engie setting up behind something but in view of the boat exit so he mows down everybody as they get off the boat. They won't even be able to run away as the water will kill them.

I kind of agree with the intel sign thing. I just couldn't fit it in anywhere else, but ... I'll try. Maybe I could make it hang from the ceiling?

Snipers - yeah, I've realized they're a huge problem. Right now, I think the checkpoints contribute a lot to cover since they are so tall, and there's pretty much no sniping at people coming out of the spawn, since there's cover there. If it turns out Snipers are still overpowered, though, I promise I'll think of something.

Spamming the boat is a scaringly good point. What if I replaced the dock with a tiny house that had two or three exits - one into the water as well (if possible, you won't get hurt as long as your head is above the surface)?

I've never been a fan of maps that limit or forces my movement (one-way doors is fine), so I'll be interested to see how you handle this map. Will it be possible to rocketjump between the checkpoints?

I don't know... at the moment it feel like a little-more-advanced-than-ordinary sniper map.

No, I don't plan on making it possible to rocket jump between them. As I've said before, I'm doing everything I can in order to make Snipers balanced.


... Looks like I just got a lot of things to do.

 

[Ida]

Quick update: The window on the front is removed. It should get rid of Demoman camping completely.

 

[Axii]

Thanks for sharing, Its given me some ideas for other maps, Good luck with your map ^_^.

 

[Ida]

Hey, no problem, and thanks for the comment.

 

[trainRiderJ]

What happens if the intel drops in a boat? Does it really move with the boat?

 

[Ida]

What happens if the intel drops in a boat? Does it really move with the boat?

That is, sadly, the biggest problem I have right now. If it's even possible, I don't know. You see, I haven't even got the boats moving yet, since I haven't mirrored the bases or anything. It'll look pretty stupid if it just falls through, but maybe that's just the way it has to be. :S

I'll at least try my best to come up with a solution.