The future of hoodoo (and discussion about filesize)

[What Is Schwa]

You really don't think people know in advance?

Do you know if your steak is good before you eat it? The waiter might tell you it is great. It might look awesome sitting on your plate. It still could taste like crap.

My server has about 30 people who participate regularly in the community on the forums. I probably have about a total of 100-150 regulars who hit up the server at least 3 times a week. I have about 15,000 unique players who have played in the last month.

I imagine your percentages are similar.

These numbers indicate that a majority (by far) of the players who play on my server are semi-regulars. I don't expect them to have any prior knowledge of a custom map in rotation. And their typical reaction to seeing an unknown map and a slow download is to disconnect. Regulars are going to stay no matter what, and they are the same group that would have seen a forum post or talked about a good map. If only a few regulars are on, and the server loses too many players at map change, the regulars will leave too, killing the server. Now the server is stuck on a map no-one wants to play and will remain dead until an admin stops by.

Also, I don't get why hoodoo is so darn big. Look at cp_oilfield. That map has more detail than most, has custom models, and weighs in at 8 megs zipped.

 

[grazr]

Why would people download it eventually if servers aren't putting it up because initially it will have the effect of emptying their server?

Youme is getting direct feedback from server admins saying pretty much what I'm saying. It seems amazing that a bunch of people with no experience running a server all act like the ones running the servers are some sort of creativity squashing overlords.

Admins want great maps just like we do. Further, admins know better than us what makes or breaks a server. When one comes to a mapper and offers direct feedback we should be thanking them. Instead the tone is usually "omg they are stupid I can download that map in 30 seconds lol!"

I'm sorry but i have to respond to that.

Who said i wasn't a server admin? Just because i don't fluant my experience or status around like a lot of people have here, i'm merely a naive level designer? I've administrated several servers in my time, 5 DoD clan servers, not just my own, a public TFC server (my first admin role) and 2 custom content servers run by associates of mine that host HL2DM and DoD games. But administrating servers none the less. If you have players, regular players, that leave your server because a little over half your player base disconnected over a download, then that doesn't say much for your players general mentality. They sound like the type of people who disconnect over any map download, or because they get dominated by more than one person, or revenged etc. At peak time it doesn't take much for a server to fill at all, regardless of a custom map. As a player i've seen a server with say 4 players fill up within the space of a single game. But.. what ever the case you have, my point..

In my experience as an admin, is that people sooner or later get the maps that are played a lot (hoodoo has to be up there in the top 5 atleast, it's certainly the custom map i see the most other than orange_x); as it has been stated already, the more times someone cancels the same download over and over per server (or even just the one) the more likely they are to put up with the download for one session and continue playing on their favourite server without interuption, on a favourite custom map of many (i know i have). A map for which, is played on a lot servers.

On a personal note i feel like i should say this:

If an admin changes the map because some (even most) of the clients disconnected because of a download then he has as little patience as the people disconnecting.

As a dedicated admin i made it entertaining for the small player numbers untill more joined. (If they were having a bad experience at all). Playing with commands, amusing the newbies, generally involving myself with the crowd. My advice to you as an ex DoD admin that got around, is get better admins; not remove great custom content. Then maybe your server wont wipe out when ever a half decent custom map is played. An admin doesn't just regulate the player flow, peaking server traffic via any means. An admin isn't an all high and mighty being of infinite wisdom and nor does he have to act like a police officer. As an admin i am truelly dissapointed to here this kind of thing happening.

Sorry to go off topic Youme. But i was baited by the slight.

Yes custom content can effect player activity on a server. Yes Youme has a large file size. Does this effect clients negatively? Some, probably more than others. I suggested he make every effert to reduce file size whilst keeping his maps beauty as much as possible. I don't see why you feel the need to discredit everyone's opinion other than your own, because you're an admin. Yes it gives you a view on the subject most people arn't privy too, but it doesn't make them wrong.

Each opinion has its flaws and draw backs. Which is why a compromise must be made. Atleast. That is what i believe, and have suggested.

 

[YM]

Sorry to go off topic Youme. But i was baited by the slight.

not at all, like I said this thread should be about general filesize discussion as well as hoodoo specifics

 

[NoHeroes]

For the record.....Hoodoo is one of the most popular maps on our payload server. I've encountered no "server kill" problems with the map, as we have both a nice fast D/L server, AND a fiercely loyal user base. Last week, our payload server stayed above 30 players for 96 hours straight, with Hoodoo being played roughly 25% of that time.

Personally, I think this is where most server operators have problems - they fail to build a hard-core, loyal user base BEFORE they introduce maps that may present users with a longer-than-typical download time.

It's easy to see which server operators actually MARKET their servers properly - just look at all (US-Based) servers that stand empty during prime-time. Here's a clue...if you can't fill your server with a popular valve-standard map (like badwater) and keep it full for 12+ hours (at least), then you DO NOT have the user base that will support maps of a non-standard size, and you have more work to do.

If, however, your user base is both loyal and prolific, and the server you're using has a strong following (i.e. it's in lots of people's fav's) then they WILL sit still for a longer-than-normal download provided the map is of high-quality (like Hoodoo).

As for the comment regarding an empty server begin stuck on a map no one will join, that's easily overcome with a plugin to reload a certain map when a server is empty.

 

[Earl]

I say you do a mix of option 1 and option 2. Be more conservative on cubemaps (how often do you actually notice cubemap effects while playing?), increase the lightmap scales unless there's a shadow that looks really weird. (I actually found on my map, some high-contrast shadows looked bad at 4-16 lightmap scale, and only looked good at 1-2 units, or 64. I went with 64...)

Don't compromise on content! That is the meat of the map! You really have to look hard to find shortcomings in cubemaps and lightmaps, and those things don't affect gameplay, and done right, only have minimal effect on aesthetics. But stripping out textures and cool custom models really detracts from the appeal of the map.

 

[grazr]

Mm, i couldn't have put it any neater than what NoHeroes said.

A lot of this does depend on the server. There is little you can do as a mapper other than.. just that; "the little things".

The only ultimate resolution if it really is that bad is just remove the custom content. Or release them as seperate models like sound files are etc. I found that to be a popular method amongst DoD servers. But then that is also something, a trend, servers will have to pick up themselves. There were usually large model packs that went around.

People will get disconnected due to missing material. Yes. Which is not really desired. Custom content isn't a huge part of TF2 right now. So it's difficult to recommend anything that useful untill people pay more attention to it.

 

[Apom]

Separate custom content sounds like a bad solution to a bad problem. I'm much more likely to disconnect from a server if I start seeing a ton of files being downloaded one after each other with no end in sight, rather than because there's a huge map. Feeling betrayed by a progress bar is unpleasant.

 

[Chilly]

I'm sorry but i have to respond to that.

To be fair, I believe he was focusing his post toward me. However, I do agree with almost everything you said.

In any case, I think the custom mapping community needs to organize with some of the server admins to get the maps played more. I think this works best for final maps, though. Perhaps a mailing list could be started with high quality custom maps, where notices of final versions of custom maps would be detailed and sent to all of the server admins interested in participating. There are a decent number of custom map servers out there already, but you'd probably see far more if they were running the same maps. Those servers would also be more popular since players would know they wouldn't need to download any new maps to play on those servers (other than the first download).

Perhaps this is something that tf2maps.net could organize... an "approved" maps section of the site that highlights all of the final versions of maps that could be considered Valve quality. I'm not sure who would select those maps, but perhaps a handful of really good mappers (youme, snipergen, skdr, shmitz) and a couple of admins of really popular servers (FLOOR_MASTER comes to mind). Servers exclusively running these maps in their main rotation could add a "approvedcustoms" tag or something like that? Spread the word, get enough admins involved, and it might help solve some of the problem.

 

[Kill_the_Bug]

Do cubemaps really add that much to a files size?

 

[Apom]

Do cubemaps really add that much to a files size?

Quoting myself makes my ego grow. Also, it will answer your question.

Cubemaps aren't what makes a map huge, though. One cubemap essentially weights resolution² × sides × color depth, that's like 25kb each with default parameters (uncompressed, and ignoring the marginal non-image information).

 

[grazr]

To be fair, I believe he was focusing his post toward me. However, I do agree with almost everything you said.

I don't doubt he was being general in his response. I didn't take it as being formaly directed at myself.

I just didn't like the lid he put over the general "mapping crowd's" response to the formal question. Regarding them and my statement is negligable opinions as we couldn't possibly know how things work. Which was both patronising and dismissive.

 

[Icarus]

I've spoken with an administrator of the [-Q-] servers. He said that cp_egypt was removed for it's filesize (80MB), so 103MB won't stand much of a chance :/

I say this because I really want to play hoodoo on a server I frequent

 

[MrAlBobo]

personally, i rejected egypt because its large, has really bad fps and isn't terribly fun to begin with...

 

[Chilly]

We run cp_egypt occasionally, but it would get played far more if the second and third stages were changed a bit, lighting was worked on, directional signs were added (just make a couple custom arrows that fit the map design), and the spawn doors were redesigned (half the time people sit in front of doors that aren't active, waiting for them to open).

I think if it was tweaked to the point that hoodoo has been, it would get played far more. Right now the vertical advantage red has on stages 2 and 3 kind of ruins it. The first halves of those stages need reworking a bit.

 

[ChronoTriggerFan]

Well, my view on this really goes down to the player's preference. If they don't want to sit though a 3-5 minute download, they're missing out. If you can survive the dreadful download, you can play a great map without whiny, impatient fools. Sure, optimize it as much as you can without losing quality, but if people can't wait a couple of minutes to play an astounding map, which hey do for valve maps anyway, then they shouldn't get any sympathy.

 

[NoHeroes]

I've spoken with an administrator of the [-Q-] servers. He said that cp_egypt was removed for it's filesize (80MB), so 103MB won't stand much of a chance :/

I say this because I really want to play hoodoo on a server I frequent

Well...I've had Hoodoo on our Payload server for several weeks now, and it's one of the favorites.

Again, it's all about the right maps on the right servers, supported by the right core audience.

 

[Randdalf]

Plus, Hoodoo is actually only a 40Mb download when bzipped.

 

[GrimGriz]

I think the most important thing is to determine how valve chooses to add player_created maps to their updates. If it's just maps that people at Valve run across when they play themselves...then file size is most important. If it CAN be done with models and textures that everyone has, it should be. A pretty map that sucks still sucks, likewise and more importantly, a great map design should be fun even if it's ugly.

Not to mix games or anything, but de_dust for 1.6 is just as fun (if not moreso) than the pretty source version. I'd hope that if valve chooses someone's map they contact them about it before they do so. If that's the case and the ugly version is fun enough that valve hears about it, you can send them the pretty version when they let you know they want to add it to their update.

Now, if you submit maps directly to valve, go with custom everything...as those customs might become models and textures everyone can play with.

p.s. can someone p.m. me with a good program for the bz2-ing of maps please.

 

[Ezekel]

i'd lean towards staying stubborn. however as is always a case, a good designer has to know when to cut their losses.
in the gaming world you will always have to deal with the balance between detail and filesize.
the question of course is this: are you making maps to please others, or for your own enjoyment? if the former, then you have to make sacrifices to cater to others, if the latter, then you can be stubborn, because it's your creation.

 

[tortilaman]

If people bzipped your map, it would be quite a bit smaller, and would have less of a problem with filesize. I currently run a tf2 community, and any maps we have that are over 10 mb in filesize we bzip. Doing that makes a huge difference. Like randdalf said, when bzipped, it's only 40mb. Give links to bzip and instructions on your page on fpsb and wherever else you host it and server ops won't have as much of a problem.