- Thread starter honeymustard
- Start date
Yes, testing is a part of the process and i havn't discounted that. We have a unique perspective on life as human beings, we are able to simulate things thanks to the power of deduction. Animals panic in a forest fire and die, we understand we can survive jumping through some flames because we understand heat doesn't kill instantly. We have experienced heat even if we havn't experienced a forest fire. We simulate that in our head and work out our chances of survival vs different choices.
Anyway i've kinda thrown your thread off topic here and the discussion really doesn't change anything, my bad. I just disagree that theorising has no value; and until the map actually gets tested that's all there is. In the mean time the map is up on a public forum with pictures... and people have given their opinion. Whilst i understand if it goes overlooked i just don't appreciate people calling it bullshit.
Anyway i've kinda thrown your thread off topic here and the discussion really doesn't change anything, my bad. I just disagree that theorising has no value; and until the map actually gets tested that's all there is. In the mean time the map is up on a public forum with pictures... and people have given their opinion. Whilst i understand if it goes overlooked i just don't appreciate people calling it bullshit.
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- Oct 26, 2009
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Sorry, but it is, I wouldn't look at a photo of a steak and say that it tasted delicious, neither would I look at a photo of a woman and say she's good in bed. You just can't make these grand assumptions based only on screenshots - they do not give the full picture.
How many people do you honestly know that don't look at their food before eating it? Would you eat a green chip? No, you've probably eaten one accidently and spat it out or just plain didn't like the look of it. The same way i've played maps where ledges and walls were all consistently 256 units tall or had wide ramps and played badly. The same way server operators will look at your feature image before deciding whether to run it in rotation or not.
I never said the map plays badly, i'm saying those features tend to play badly in other maps so watch out for them in your map and avoid using them if you can. By all means ignore my advice, but don't just tell people their opinion is bullshit on some unfounded idea that only feedback from playtests is useful.
Arnold understands that much, why can't you.
I never said the map plays badly, i'm saying those features tend to play badly in other maps so watch out for them in your map and avoid using them if you can. By all means ignore my advice, but don't just tell people their opinion is bullshit on some unfounded idea that only feedback from playtests is useful.
Arnold understands that much, why can't you.
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Mr. Wimples
L6: Sharp Member
- Jan 27, 2010
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I thought the map, overall, was fairly interesting. The second point was fairly interesting, but the middle cap, at least in my opinion, is much too large. Consider setting something up similar to the middle point in Yukon, which I think worked pretty well.
Arnold
L6: Sharp Member
- Jul 18, 2008
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Super: Ye I've been thinking the same thing so I'll probably add one in the curve
Mr Wimples, I don't quite understand what you mean by making it similar to Yukon. I will try to keep the idea of a fairly large cp going for as long as possible so I'm certainly not changing it after a single playtrough. Even so Yukon doesn't really have the best mid cp of any 5cp map I know. Thanks for the comment though but i'd rather have you tell me what bothered you about it being too large.
Mr Wimples, I don't quite understand what you mean by making it similar to Yukon. I will try to keep the idea of a fairly large cp going for as long as possible so I'm certainly not changing it after a single playtrough. Even so Yukon doesn't really have the best mid cp of any 5cp map I know. Thanks for the comment though but i'd rather have you tell me what bothered you about it being too large.
payload was never awkward or uncomfortable. In fact it became the most popular game mode in TF2 despite being new and largely unknown. That a-side and to answer your question on class imbalances in regards to scale, I can only list what you should already know.
Damage fall off makes playing as anything other than sniper difficult, but probably more importantly it makes combat indecisive.
Scout is favourable because you can close distances quickly and essentially negate unnecasserily long travel distances. Playing as slower classes stacks the travel time disadvantages.
The same is true of soldier/demo as of scouts, what with their jump perks.
Maps that are too big always feature scout/demo/sniper play as these are the best classes for closing distances, reducing overall travel time or negating damage fall off. If your map favours scouts and snipers the general consensus is that it's too big. Anything beyond 1024 is considered long as that's the maximum damage fall off distance. The largest sightline in TF2 is just under 3300 Hammer units (as seen at badwater's start and upward's CP 3). The average long sightline is 2048. If your average sightlines are generally of 2000 units the map could be said to be on the large side. If the map features structures to allow players to flank and generally take cover these sightlines can be considered balanced, but if the map features primarily large and open areas then it is not balanced.
I hope this assessment helps.
Damage fall off makes playing as anything other than sniper difficult, but probably more importantly it makes combat indecisive.
Scout is favourable because you can close distances quickly and essentially negate unnecasserily long travel distances. Playing as slower classes stacks the travel time disadvantages.
The same is true of soldier/demo as of scouts, what with their jump perks.
Maps that are too big always feature scout/demo/sniper play as these are the best classes for closing distances, reducing overall travel time or negating damage fall off. If your map favours scouts and snipers the general consensus is that it's too big. Anything beyond 1024 is considered long as that's the maximum damage fall off distance. The largest sightline in TF2 is just under 3300 Hammer units (as seen at badwater's start and upward's CP 3). The average long sightline is 2048. If your average sightlines are generally of 2000 units the map could be said to be on the large side. If the map features structures to allow players to flank and generally take cover these sightlines can be considered balanced, but if the map features primarily large and open areas then it is not balanced.
I hope this assessment helps.
Arnold
L6: Sharp Member
- Jul 18, 2008
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Thanks for the info but that wasn't really my question 
I asked what's uncomfortable or unsettling about the larger capzones. And how it induces class imbalance.
I've already listed my area sizes in terms of units so you could've just used those.
And I'd also like to say that i find payload extremely unsettling in comparison to 5cp
I asked what's uncomfortable or unsettling about the larger capzones. And how it induces class imbalance.
I've already listed my area sizes in terms of units so you could've just used those.
And I'd also like to say that i find payload extremely unsettling in comparison to 5cp
- Oct 26, 2009
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After playing another 6v6 on it last night, I don't really feel any of your criticism stands up (especially about the sizes). I can post the STV demo if you're interested (I think it would be beneficial).
The cap points are really big and cap really fast, there is a metric fuckton of health along the way to mid which allows the roamer and demoman to get to mid at the same time (6+ seconds ahead of the scouts and 9 seconds ahead of the medic) and completely shut out the other team while having full hp. If the other team does manage to get through the spam the demo/soldier can just back out safely while someone on their team sits behind the pillars and blocks the cap until they are ready to rejoin the fight. On a side note, it is also possible to get both soldiers and a demoman to mid 4 or more seconds before the scouts and 7 or more seconds before the medic (and with each of them having reasonably high hp), but that requires one of the scout pair to stay and walk to mid with the medic.
From mid you can then proceed to 2nd in 2 rocket jumps or 1 sticky jump and from there you can get to last in 2 rocket jumps or 1 sticky jump. This means that if you lose mid you will most likely lose the round because the offensive team can apply a constant pressure to the defensive team which allows for very little room to bounce back. Also if a team gets wiped at mid they will lose the round due to the cap times and distances from each point. In this sense the large cap zones work against the losing team because they allow the offensive team to quickly get onto the next point and walk through the cap zone to the other end of the area in which the point is located while still capping the point. Thus allowing them to be that much closer to the next point they wish to cap.
As for the layout of the map, it’s a fairly boring map due to the constant restricting feeling of being in a map that feels like a small hallway, ex. Hall of Death. These “hallways” drastically increase the effects of splash damage which gives a clear advantage to those with man advantage.
A side note to the layout is your skybox is really low. A demoman can hit it during a single stickyjump.
The death pits in spawn are a useless waste of space and look really ugly.
Almost all of your diagonal walls allow someone to clip on to them and essentially float in that spot (or if they are falling they can sometimes clip on to the wall and avoid fall damage). Some of the screenshots below show this effect.
If someone rocket/sticky jumps they can see over many of the walls.
Stickies are almost useless for defending points due to the large cap zones.
Stickies bounce off this sign.
You can clip onto and float on these boxes (they also stop you from jumping sometimes).
The screenshots below show things you failed to properly clip.
I don’t like this clipping on this corner.
.
This clipping sticks out of the wall and causes people to hit it when jumping up the wall.
This wall also clips badly.
You can spam over this wall onto last point.
Also you said in an earlier post in this thread about croissant in response to grazr: “just the deathpits and mirroring alone could be enough to not be viable in comp players eyes so i'm holding of the boat with this map.” Then later you said this in response to waxpax about konkreet “The death area in spawn isn't really a problem unless you're really bad though. that's about it.” While you said croissant isn’t a comp map but konkreet is supposed to be for comp…
From mid you can then proceed to 2nd in 2 rocket jumps or 1 sticky jump and from there you can get to last in 2 rocket jumps or 1 sticky jump. This means that if you lose mid you will most likely lose the round because the offensive team can apply a constant pressure to the defensive team which allows for very little room to bounce back. Also if a team gets wiped at mid they will lose the round due to the cap times and distances from each point. In this sense the large cap zones work against the losing team because they allow the offensive team to quickly get onto the next point and walk through the cap zone to the other end of the area in which the point is located while still capping the point. Thus allowing them to be that much closer to the next point they wish to cap.
As for the layout of the map, it’s a fairly boring map due to the constant restricting feeling of being in a map that feels like a small hallway, ex. Hall of Death. These “hallways” drastically increase the effects of splash damage which gives a clear advantage to those with man advantage.
A side note to the layout is your skybox is really low. A demoman can hit it during a single stickyjump.
The death pits in spawn are a useless waste of space and look really ugly.
Almost all of your diagonal walls allow someone to clip on to them and essentially float in that spot (or if they are falling they can sometimes clip on to the wall and avoid fall damage). Some of the screenshots below show this effect.
If someone rocket/sticky jumps they can see over many of the walls.
Stickies are almost useless for defending points due to the large cap zones.
Stickies bounce off this sign.
You can clip onto and float on these boxes (they also stop you from jumping sometimes).
The screenshots below show things you failed to properly clip.
I don’t like this clipping on this corner.
This clipping sticks out of the wall and causes people to hit it when jumping up the wall.
This wall also clips badly.
You can spam over this wall onto last point.
Also you said in an earlier post in this thread about croissant in response to grazr: “just the deathpits and mirroring alone could be enough to not be viable in comp players eyes so i'm holding of the boat with this map.” Then later you said this in response to waxpax about konkreet “The death area in spawn isn't really a problem unless you're really bad though. that's about it.” While you said croissant isn’t a comp map but konkreet is supposed to be for comp…
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- Oct 26, 2009
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The deathpit in croissant is in an area with a lot of traffic, whereas the deathpit in konkreet is in the spawn. There's no reason for anyone to die in it unless you purposely walk backwards in spawn (hence "really bad").
"The cap points are really big and cap really fast, there is a metric fuckton of health along the way to mid which allows the roamer and demoman to get to mid at the same time (6+ seconds ahead of the scouts and 9 seconds ahead of the medic) and completely shut out the other team while having full hp."
Does this mean only one team's roamer and demoman can get to mid fast? How can they shut out the other team if the health is symmetrical?
Thanks for the clipping screenshots, these will be fixed. Some of the problems stem from having some of the walls as func_brush (for example the pillars on the road), to ensure they're rendered through the skybox. I'll try and optimise these a bit. Most of the other diagonals will be fixed once they're turned into displacements, which is happening now.
"The cap points are really big and cap really fast, there is a metric fuckton of health along the way to mid which allows the roamer and demoman to get to mid at the same time (6+ seconds ahead of the scouts and 9 seconds ahead of the medic) and completely shut out the other team while having full hp."
Does this mean only one team's roamer and demoman can get to mid fast? How can they shut out the other team if the health is symmetrical?
Thanks for the clipping screenshots, these will be fixed. Some of the problems stem from having some of the walls as func_brush (for example the pillars on the road), to ensure they're rendered through the skybox. I'll try and optimise these a bit. Most of the other diagonals will be fixed once they're turned into displacements, which is happening now.
Arnold
L6: Sharp Member
- Jul 18, 2008
- 283
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Also Walka, could you please post a demo? I'd love a demo of the match you played And thanks a lot for the clipchecking but you shouldn't really do it that extensively for alpha maps, diagonal walls allow you to float because of the engine.
Also i hope you realise that a rollout can be performed by both sides and that a sacrifice in health to get to mid faster is a tactical choice, there is no way however they could completely lock out the other team unless the other team can't rollout.
And thanks a lot for the clipchecking but you shouldn't really do it that extensively for alpha maps, diagonal walls allow you to float because of the engine.Also i hope you realise that a rollout can be performed by both sides and that a sacrifice in health to get to mid faster is a tactical choice, there is no way however they could completely lock out the other team unless the other team can't rollout.
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Hypothetically both teams can get to mid at the same time, but realistically they cant due to varying levels of jumping experience. For instance I have one of the fastest (if not the fastest) rollouts for soldier in NA which allows me to get to mid much faster then anyone else. An example of this is i am able to get to granary middle and be sitting on top of the other teams crate with full hp 2-3 seconds before anyone on the other team gets there. Another example is badlands, I can be on the other teams train before anyone can get out of house thus keeping anyone in there from getting out.
- Oct 26, 2009
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That's a good thing though. I can beat some shitty demomen here in Europe by like 5 seconds on badlands, but I wouldn't fault the map for it.
Not faulting, but pointing out that its possible so you can decide if you wish to keep it or change it so the map doesn't give such an advantage to those with better jumpers.