- Aug 7, 2014
- 1,241
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I don't think you're using the right words.
- Thread starter DrLambda
- Start date
You're actually right. For me, it was more like BLU side is Powerhouse-inspired, RED is Thunder Mountain-inspired, but overall, a larger part of the map ended up in Thunder Mountain style, and Thunder Mountain inside spawn is Spytech, while Powerhouse has only a litte bit of it.
Also, i forgot to pack the custom textures in the current download (and the map that was imped, sorry.) That breaks the patches under the pickups on the grass and the easter egg. I'll fix that tomorrow (if i can do it without recompiling after bspzip -repack, otherwise it'll have to wait until b3.)
Also, i forgot to pack the custom textures in the current download (and the map that was imped, sorry.) That breaks the patches under the pickups on the grass and the easter egg. I'll fix that tomorrow (if i can do it without recompiling after bspzip -repack, otherwise it'll have to wait until b3.)
So, i've been watching the replays of the imps where i wasn't playing myself (including the one on wednesday, where i really can't say how my map got into the imp.) I can say that 3 out of 4 imps were positive, although while pointing out flaws about how last is unimpressive and doesn't invite defending. I will address this problem in the next beta, which will also include a nice-looking deathpit (rather than the unimpressive cliff-then-sky it is now) and maybe a 3d skybox, although i might push that back a bit.
Also, it seems like there are people who don't like PLR - who would've thought.
What bothers me a bit right now is the fourth imp on wednesday on the EU server, where it was voted off after 17 minutes. Partially because nothing changed since the last imp, which i understand. Like i said, i have no idea how it got into the imp. But also because one team was slaughtering the other for 5-6 rounds straight, which continued even after a scramble. They took easy control of the bridge and with that over two of the spawn exits. Of course, when one team is getting dominated, people are more likely to give negative feedback (Actual !fb or !gf was rare, i got a grand total of 18 comments over at least 75 minutes of gameplay,) and chat said that it was impossible to defend when you can't leave spawn, but at the same time said it was so easy to get around that it was really easy to flank. I would've expected a combined effort to do exactly that over the third spawn door, but alas it wasn't meant to be. The other imps had even win rates, with both sides pushing and both carts usually ending up on the last 20% of the track, but this time, it didn't happen.
The question is, what am i supposed to do there? Should i evaluate that result higher than the other ones (although i have no idea what to do to stop a dominating team) or should i "filter" it, considering the fact that the gameday and the other imps went well?
Last but not least - I'm still open for ideas for last. I don't wanna destroy too much of the layout, but i'm open to per example let the cart drive downwards into a new, more interesting to defend area where the track ends right now (maybe even with a fourth spawn exit.)
Also, it seems like there are people who don't like PLR - who would've thought.
What bothers me a bit right now is the fourth imp on wednesday on the EU server, where it was voted off after 17 minutes. Partially because nothing changed since the last imp, which i understand. Like i said, i have no idea how it got into the imp. But also because one team was slaughtering the other for 5-6 rounds straight, which continued even after a scramble. They took easy control of the bridge and with that over two of the spawn exits. Of course, when one team is getting dominated, people are more likely to give negative feedback (Actual !fb or !gf was rare, i got a grand total of 18 comments over at least 75 minutes of gameplay,) and chat said that it was impossible to defend when you can't leave spawn, but at the same time said it was so easy to get around that it was really easy to flank. I would've expected a combined effort to do exactly that over the third spawn door, but alas it wasn't meant to be. The other imps had even win rates, with both sides pushing and both carts usually ending up on the last 20% of the track, but this time, it didn't happen.
The question is, what am i supposed to do there? Should i evaluate that result higher than the other ones (although i have no idea what to do to stop a dominating team) or should i "filter" it, considering the fact that the gameday and the other imps went well?
Last but not least - I'm still open for ideas for last. I don't wanna destroy too much of the layout, but i'm open to per example let the cart drive downwards into a new, more interesting to defend area where the track ends right now (maybe even with a fourth spawn exit.)
Hello, i recently saw your thread musing about the annoyances you had with the tests this map had, and while i feel like there are some fair points there, i must disagree with the maps issues being caused by imbalanced teams. These issues I am about to talk about are no stranger to this map through it's iterations.
Now, this is the spot soldiers and heavies were using to hold losing team in spawn and let me tell you. This spot is absolutely godly once you get hold of the area, you have perfect view and high ground of the two main spawn exits. On top of this there is a medium health back and ammo bit to the right, where the low ground has absolutely nothing besides one small. One which you need to cross this death zone to get to. You also said that you were annoyed, that people didn't notice the alternate exit to the side. I have to say, it was less the case of people not always noticing it and more case of it being not very helpful. The direct path to the high ground from the said exit is very cramped hallway with a window you can shoot through. The other route from the said exit is a long path around, that takes you to the enemy side and not in any way ideal position to deal with this spot.
This is not the only major issue with the map, i feel like these stompy results are because the map scales backwards. Further you get your cart, easier pushing it becomes. Let's see.
Now soon as the map starts, like in many Hightower style maps, two things happen. Good portion of the players push the cart and rest split off to stop the enemy cart. Now this is where the spot from above becomes even bigger issue. Once a certain team halts control of the upper area and gets their own cart past this spot. It is very rare for the losing team ever get further than this. Not to mention, due to the massive high ground difference, it is very easy to kill off the first wave of people trying to get the cart going.
Now let's keep following the track.
Now that the winning team has managed to get past the pit of doom, things get incredibly easy. The second major segment the cart goes through is none other than, once again, the incredibly powerful spot you can use to lock the losing team in their spawn. Pretty much funneling now entirety of winning team to this spot.
And then we reach the final stages of the track, area tucked away from the team that has to defend and to get here, you once again have to cross the incredibly powerful spot for winning team to keep losing team locked in their spawn. Now with added bonus of winning team having quick shortcut right to the cart from their spawn.
Now don't get me wrong, there are a lot of fun elements on this map. It is not by any means worst map ever made and there is potential, but in it's current state, it feels like only one team at the time gets to have any fun.
Now, this is the spot soldiers and heavies were using to hold losing team in spawn and let me tell you. This spot is absolutely godly once you get hold of the area, you have perfect view and high ground of the two main spawn exits. On top of this there is a medium health back and ammo bit to the right, where the low ground has absolutely nothing besides one small. One which you need to cross this death zone to get to. You also said that you were annoyed, that people didn't notice the alternate exit to the side. I have to say, it was less the case of people not always noticing it and more case of it being not very helpful. The direct path to the high ground from the said exit is very cramped hallway with a window you can shoot through. The other route from the said exit is a long path around, that takes you to the enemy side and not in any way ideal position to deal with this spot.
This is not the only major issue with the map, i feel like these stompy results are because the map scales backwards. Further you get your cart, easier pushing it becomes. Let's see.
Now soon as the map starts, like in many Hightower style maps, two things happen. Good portion of the players push the cart and rest split off to stop the enemy cart. Now this is where the spot from above becomes even bigger issue. Once a certain team halts control of the upper area and gets their own cart past this spot. It is very rare for the losing team ever get further than this. Not to mention, due to the massive high ground difference, it is very easy to kill off the first wave of people trying to get the cart going.
Now let's keep following the track.
Now that the winning team has managed to get past the pit of doom, things get incredibly easy. The second major segment the cart goes through is none other than, once again, the incredibly powerful spot you can use to lock the losing team in their spawn. Pretty much funneling now entirety of winning team to this spot.
And then we reach the final stages of the track, area tucked away from the team that has to defend and to get here, you once again have to cross the incredibly powerful spot for winning team to keep losing team locked in their spawn. Now with added bonus of winning team having quick shortcut right to the cart from their spawn.
Now don't get me wrong, there are a lot of fun elements on this map. It is not by any means worst map ever made and there is potential, but in it's current state, it feels like only one team at the time gets to have any fun.
So, after starting a discussion here, i don't want to be the one to not post on my own thread. This is what i'm currently planning to do.
First of all, take a lot of power away from this hold. I want to enable the defenders to either hold the hill or control the spawns, not both. For that, i'm removing the medium health kit, replacing it with a small one, while putting up a wall on the second ramp that either makes the team able to control the hill or the spawns, but not both at the same time. An additional path with a one-way door gives the attacking team an obvious option to attack anyone holding down the hill.
(Please ignore the new deathpit, i'm not happy with it and will redo it.)
I dont want to make it impossible or very hard to rocketjump up the bridge, so i don't want to wall it off completely. That's why im adding a small wall here that hides the new spawn exit to the side unless you commit to watch it by walking over to the left.
I'm still working on the new last, but unti now, i haven't found anything that makes me happy. Right now, i'm looking at the idea of adding a downward ramp where the current upward ramp is, adding a room under the battlements with a fourth spawn exit, a wall that hides said spawn exit, a curve in the track and a small ramp up before last. I tried to paint it here, sorry if it is confusing.
This isn't set in stone, mind you. I'm still very open to ideas, because my idea has some problems (low ceiling height making for possible bad gameplay) and i haven't found solutions for that until now.
First of all, take a lot of power away from this hold. I want to enable the defenders to either hold the hill or control the spawns, not both. For that, i'm removing the medium health kit, replacing it with a small one, while putting up a wall on the second ramp that either makes the team able to control the hill or the spawns, but not both at the same time. An additional path with a one-way door gives the attacking team an obvious option to attack anyone holding down the hill.
(Please ignore the new deathpit, i'm not happy with it and will redo it.)
I dont want to make it impossible or very hard to rocketjump up the bridge, so i don't want to wall it off completely. That's why im adding a small wall here that hides the new spawn exit to the side unless you commit to watch it by walking over to the left.
I'm still working on the new last, but unti now, i haven't found anything that makes me happy. Right now, i'm looking at the idea of adding a downward ramp where the current upward ramp is, adding a room under the battlements with a fourth spawn exit, a wall that hides said spawn exit, a curve in the track and a small ramp up before last. I tried to paint it here, sorry if it is confusing.
This isn't set in stone, mind you. I'm still very open to ideas, because my idea has some problems (low ceiling height making for possible bad gameplay) and i haven't found solutions for that until now.
Yeah, lots of work done. Filename is B3a because B3 has the old last.
Changelog
Added additional one-way path for attackers trying to push the ramps
Added cover on bridges to make spawns harder to camp
Moved all pickups on ramp back
Replaced medium health kit on ramp with small one.
Lowered barrels in barrel storage to make them less floaty
Added some artificial light to brighten up darker places
Added two bitchin' death pits
Early optimization pass
Redesigned last CP to make it easier and more natural to defend
Disabled team switch on round end
Fixed some displacement alphas (no grass through solids)
Fixed red sight-blocking wall at spawn (decreased width by 16hu, matching blu)
Fixed a lot of displacement texture seams
Moved observer points
Screenshots
Read the rest of this update entry...
Changelog
Added additional one-way path for attackers trying to push the ramps
Added cover on bridges to make spawns harder to camp
Moved all pickups on ramp back
Replaced medium health kit on ramp with small one.
Lowered barrels in barrel storage to make them less floaty
Added some artificial light to brighten up darker places
Added two bitchin' death pits
Early optimization pass
Redesigned last CP to make it easier and more natural to defend
Disabled team switch on round end
Fixed some displacement alphas (no grass through solids)
Fixed red sight-blocking wall at spawn (decreased width by 16hu, matching blu)
Fixed a lot of displacement texture seams
Moved observer points
Screenshots
Read the rest of this update entry...
So, there it is - I put a lot of time and sweat into that version. I hope it shows... and i really hope it plays better.
I'll try to be around for the imps if possible, but i think i can't always be there.
Major points i want to test
- Do the changes to the ramps and last work? Do they play well?
- Are there some major graphical hiccups?
Known bugs
I know that the windows over the RED spawn exit are currently floating and there is a visible nodraw above them, but i only realized after everything was finished for release. Please be gentle, i'll fix it in the next version.
I'll try to be around for the imps if possible, but i think i can't always be there.
Major points i want to test
- Do the changes to the ramps and last work? Do they play well?
- Are there some major graphical hiccups?
Known bugs
I know that the windows over the RED spawn exit are currently floating and there is a visible nodraw above them, but i only realized after everything was finished for release. Please be gentle, i'll fix it in the next version.
Yay, lots of cleanup, not many gameplay changes.
Changelog
Moved floating windows on red spawn onto their respective wall
Fixed glitched displacement roof on red spawn
Removed visible nodraw on small spawn exit door
Moved small spawn exit doors back onto the grid
Significantly increased the size of respawn door openers
Added props to top roof on mid to make it clearer that you can't get there
Added env_cubemap for water in deathpit
Fixed water in death pit for sub dx9 hardware
Additional optimization
Fixed clipping/solidity at a few places
Replaced stupid temporary tombstone prop with almost as stupid temporary lamp prop
Fixed missing displacement face on roof displacement
Added 3d skybox
Screenshots
Read the rest of this update entry...
Changelog
Moved floating windows on red spawn onto their respective wall
Fixed glitched displacement roof on red spawn
Removed visible nodraw on small spawn exit door
Moved small spawn exit doors back onto the grid
Significantly increased the size of respawn door openers
Added props to top roof on mid to make it clearer that you can't get there
Added env_cubemap for water in deathpit
Fixed water in death pit for sub dx9 hardware
Additional optimization
Fixed clipping/solidity at a few places
Replaced stupid temporary tombstone prop with almost as stupid temporary lamp prop
Fixed missing displacement face on roof displacement
Added 3d skybox
Screenshots
Read the rest of this update entry...
So, i wanted to wait for the Gameday to make a decision, but it hasn't changed much. I'm gonna finish up the visual glitches and other inconveniences, but keep the gameplay pretty much intact, even with the problems it currently has. I might change last a bit though, it doesn't play out the way i thought it would.
You can say that i didn't solve the PLR problem with this map, and i'm not motivated enough to changing enough on this map to make the gameplay radically different. I can say i enjoyed myself while playing it, and i think there were enough players that thought the same, although the map has some core gameplay problems when played with major focus on the objective. From what my initial goal was (as far as i remember, because there was quite the development gap) i consider this a minor success, although i can't say that for everything i had in mind.
I learned a lot while making Hierarch, especially about displacements and development cycles. I am thankful for the feedback and for everyone testing it, and being vocal about its problems. I think my next map can be quite a bit better with everything i learned.
Special thanks go out to Berry, who gave a lot of early and late feedback, Swordfish, who pointed out quite a lot of things in the last gameday, and Wilson, who was at least since b1 very vocal about Hierarch and its problems and probably played every single imp/gameday.
Unless i change my mind, i'm not going to "bother" the testing group with more tests for the next version, which i will probably directly upload to the Workshop. But you will hear from me when i have the next project that i think could work. You can consider this a preview or a warning, you decide
TL;DR: Map's not quite as good as i thought it was, but trying to fix it might in this stage of development break this map, so i'm going to focus on a new project once i fixed the major visual problems. I'll try to solve the problems this map has in a earlier development phase in my next project.
You can say that i didn't solve the PLR problem with this map, and i'm not motivated enough to changing enough on this map to make the gameplay radically different. I can say i enjoyed myself while playing it, and i think there were enough players that thought the same, although the map has some core gameplay problems when played with major focus on the objective. From what my initial goal was (as far as i remember, because there was quite the development gap) i consider this a minor success, although i can't say that for everything i had in mind.
I learned a lot while making Hierarch, especially about displacements and development cycles. I am thankful for the feedback and for everyone testing it, and being vocal about its problems. I think my next map can be quite a bit better with everything i learned.
Special thanks go out to Berry, who gave a lot of early and late feedback, Swordfish, who pointed out quite a lot of things in the last gameday, and Wilson, who was at least since b1 very vocal about Hierarch and its problems and probably played every single imp/gameday.
Unless i change my mind, i'm not going to "bother" the testing group with more tests for the next version, which i will probably directly upload to the Workshop. But you will hear from me when i have the next project that i think could work. You can consider this a preview or a warning, you decide
TL;DR: Map's not quite as good as i thought it was, but trying to fix it might in this stage of development break this map, so i'm going to focus on a new project once i fixed the major visual problems. I'll try to solve the problems this map has in a earlier development phase in my next project.
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Changelog
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- Completely redid lightning, fog and similar
- Increased size of upper side building door by 16hu so it's harder to get stuck in the cart there.
- Removed a double ammo pack - No idea how it got there
- Changed water texture to a larger size
- Changed wire texture in red spawn to make it more believable
- Replaced train wheels with other prop because train wheels make no sense (didn't even realize those were train wheels)
- Reworked the crossing tracks
- Reworked small building on battlements
- Fixed one-way doors not opening on map win
- Removed middle wall of lower mid building
- Changed detail on bridge beam once more to make it more realistic
- Changed props on last to make it easier to defend
- Fixed at least one visleaf mistake i made earlier
- Cleaned up brushwork, detailing, optimization
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Changelog
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- Removed floating clock prop from mid building
- Fixed a displacement seam
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Hierarch is now live on the Steam Workshop!
Click the picture to be taken there.
Also, bonus isometric overview:
Click the picture to be taken there.
Also, bonus isometric overview:
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Changelog
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- Fixed multiple building-in-spawn exploits
- Fixed some misaligned textures
- Fixed visible nodraw on skywalk
- Fixed and clipped blinds in BLU spawn
- Additional clipping (Thanks @Crowbar)
- Added soundscapes
- Beautified mid lower building
- Added hidden artificial light on blue ramp to make the cliff brighter
- Fixed a floating window
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Changelog
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- Actually compiled with Tool brushes (Clips etc)
- Changed a few clips to blockbullets2 where it made sense
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Details looking fly.