- Jun 20, 2023
- 15
- 5
Wuketuke submitted a new resource:
Fishtank - this sure is a map alright
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Fishtank - this sure is a map alright
Read more about this resource...
- Thread starter Wuketuke
- Start date
- Jul 30, 2021
- 635
- 361
Decided to give some feedback on this today. Forgive me if I sound a bit harsh, please.
Starting off, just to get this out of the way, this is Reverse Control the Keep. R-CTK is a very flawed gamemode, but I will try to give you advice to make it work. Just please keep in mind that I would recommend CTK above it, and if you're willing to change the gamemode, it would make sense.
Playing off this, your map is really, really long. This is a bad thing in both CTK and RCTK, as this means that the flag is unable to change hands very often. (Part of the appeal of both gamemodes) It just leads to the flag being way too easy to defend.
I think in general, the layout is a bit overcomplex. There's not much reason for this underground route to be here, and while I will admit it does look kinda cool, it would be better as an out of bounds area or something, rather than a gameplay space. The underground route is just too long imo and would be better if it were replaced by traditional flanks on the upper floor of the map.
The flag truck is asymmetrical in nature, which is just uncool. It's also not really accessible by all classes, which if you're playing a flag-based map, it really should be. Would appreciate this being replaced at some point with something a bit shorter and non-asymmetric.
Like I said earlier, I really think this area would be better as a traditional side route or something. The current design of this area is clunky and doesn't really feel suitable for combat, so I think flattening it out and giving it a bit of space to the side (visualized by the trapezoid shape) would make it feel better as a combat space, as players will likely be running through here. You could also put an ammo/hp kit spot in the trapezoid area if you wanted, as I think that's a good spot for them. The grey lines are just for perspective, not actual gameplay area. (Also remove the 1-way door pls)
Now, this will almost DEFINITELY be a lot of work to do, but I think if you remove these areas and then work with the result of that, in the long run the map will play a lot better. It's just a lot of excess area that isn't needed and it adds to the issue of the map being too long. I want to comment on this area more when this area is removed, as there is a lot I feel like I could say about it, but the fact is that I can't really be certain about how my decisions would be impacted by this part of the map being removed until I see this area gone and the connectors from last to the forward part of the base rebuilt. I urge you, PLEASE trust me on this one.
One thing that I didn't expect but am pleasantly surprised by is the way you block sightlines here. I really like these grates being used as sightline blockers here. They look really cool and the fact that they're transparent means that your team can play around them in more interesting ways, which I really, REALLY like! If there's one thing you keep on this map, please keep this style of "window" around the map. It looks awesome so far. The only complaint I could have is that the fences themselves aren't flat, which is really bad when trying to figure out where and where you cannot shoot people from. If there's any fix for that, please implement it.
I think this spawn would be nicer if you just made it a bit larger. It's fiiiine as it is, but imo it's a bit claustraphobic. I think if you moved the resupply locker between the main spawn exit and the spawn exit with the crate. Also, I think you could widen the sightline blocker just a bit; It makes it really awkward to leave spawn atm.
I think I'll leave it at this for now. Honestly, I'm really impressed! For your first map, this looks like a lot of fun, but it does need some good work to make it great. I'm excited to follow the development of Fishtank!
Starting off, just to get this out of the way, this is Reverse Control the Keep. R-CTK is a very flawed gamemode, but I will try to give you advice to make it work. Just please keep in mind that I would recommend CTK above it, and if you're willing to change the gamemode, it would make sense.
Playing off this, your map is really, really long. This is a bad thing in both CTK and RCTK, as this means that the flag is unable to change hands very often. (Part of the appeal of both gamemodes) It just leads to the flag being way too easy to defend.
I think in general, the layout is a bit overcomplex. There's not much reason for this underground route to be here, and while I will admit it does look kinda cool, it would be better as an out of bounds area or something, rather than a gameplay space. The underground route is just too long imo and would be better if it were replaced by traditional flanks on the upper floor of the map.
The flag truck is asymmetrical in nature, which is just uncool. It's also not really accessible by all classes, which if you're playing a flag-based map, it really should be. Would appreciate this being replaced at some point with something a bit shorter and non-asymmetric.
Like I said earlier, I really think this area would be better as a traditional side route or something. The current design of this area is clunky and doesn't really feel suitable for combat, so I think flattening it out and giving it a bit of space to the side (visualized by the trapezoid shape) would make it feel better as a combat space, as players will likely be running through here. You could also put an ammo/hp kit spot in the trapezoid area if you wanted, as I think that's a good spot for them. The grey lines are just for perspective, not actual gameplay area. (Also remove the 1-way door pls)
Now, this will almost DEFINITELY be a lot of work to do, but I think if you remove these areas and then work with the result of that, in the long run the map will play a lot better. It's just a lot of excess area that isn't needed and it adds to the issue of the map being too long. I want to comment on this area more when this area is removed, as there is a lot I feel like I could say about it, but the fact is that I can't really be certain about how my decisions would be impacted by this part of the map being removed until I see this area gone and the connectors from last to the forward part of the base rebuilt. I urge you, PLEASE trust me on this one.
One thing that I didn't expect but am pleasantly surprised by is the way you block sightlines here. I really like these grates being used as sightline blockers here. They look really cool and the fact that they're transparent means that your team can play around them in more interesting ways, which I really, REALLY like! If there's one thing you keep on this map, please keep this style of "window" around the map. It looks awesome so far. The only complaint I could have is that the fences themselves aren't flat, which is really bad when trying to figure out where and where you cannot shoot people from. If there's any fix for that, please implement it.
I think this spawn would be nicer if you just made it a bit larger. It's fiiiine as it is, but imo it's a bit claustraphobic. I think if you moved the resupply locker between the main spawn exit and the spawn exit with the crate. Also, I think you could widen the sightline blocker just a bit; It makes it really awkward to leave spawn atm.
I think I'll leave it at this for now. Honestly, I'm really impressed! For your first map, this looks like a lot of fun, but it does need some good work to make it great. I'm excited to follow the development of Fishtank!
- Sep 10, 2016
- 531
- 398
In my opinion, the gamemode is no object in this equation; what matters is whether the decisions made by the gamemode designer and the decisions made by the map designer combine to create a good result.
Katsu even alludes to this:
Saying that it's a flawed gamemode is misleading, of course, but it distinctly has value, because the gamemode's flaws should act as the map designer's guideline for what their design needs to fix. In that sense, I'd say that saying the gamemode has no flaws is even more harmful.
Now, with that out of the way, here's a quick analysis of RCTK:
Reverse CTK is a derivative of KoTH - or, at any rate, it uses its timers - so, we can assume that the gamemode will be most exciting if the objective is changing hands often.
But, it's also a derivative of CTF (you must steal the flag from the enemy base), so we know that attacking the enemy base must be part of the gameplay.
Here are some factors that arise from that:
Shorter maps tend to perform better, because by virtue of winning the fight at mid, you're automatically able to push into the enemy base and grab their flag in the time they spend retreating.
But shorter maps aren't infallible.
They work in the reverse, where the team who wins the initial teamfight at mid will be able to push forward and spawncamp.
This means that the other team has to win one fight to get the spawncampers out of their base, then another to push into their base and capture the flag.
So it takes you back to square one, in a way.
So, just making the map shorter will not immediately make it a fun RCTK map.
But something I think would have a way better shot would be a layout where spawncamping is impossible:
By having a direct route from spawn to mid that never links with a lobby, and never interacts with the capture point or the other route to mid, it makes it essentially impossible for the enemy team to push past mid and into your base, since if they try pushing down one route, you can use the other to get behind them for an unsurvivable pincer attack.
And, if they try pushing both as two equal groups of 6, you can waterfall one as a group of 12 to totally overwhelm them.
But this also works in the other way, Tiftid! It makes it too hard for the enemy team to push into your base when you own the flag, since you can use the route from spawn to mid to "get behind them for an unsurvivable pincer attack!"
Well, no worries! Just lock your team's route from spawn to mid while your team has the flag at your capture point!
The real issue I think this layout could have is walk times. With 7 seconds from spawn to the point, it wouldn't actually be that much shorter than your average KoTH map. That means that if some enemies survive the attack on mid and stall you until their teammates respawn, they can manage to get a proper defense of the CP, like an A/D point with a forward and backward hold.
This is why I chose a massive 10 seconds for the respawn wave time - it makes it a lot harder to stall for long enough for your teammates to respawn.
Couple that with intelligent map design, such as a very wide, hilly mid that's difficult to prevent players moving through if you're not holding each individual entrance into it, and you could make a map where the flag changes hands nearly every fight of every round, and point defenses will only happen with intense skill and a lot of correct decisions made in a row on the part of the players. In other words, the very core of fun KoTH gameplay.
The rest of the issues Katsu has are mostly to do with class balance, i.e. how your areas are sized for combat. In the interest of keeping this response short, I won't repeat my 16-year-old self, and will instead link you to this guide which he very sensibly wrote back then, knowing it would save his 19-year-old self a lot of time and effort down the line.
Katsu even alludes to this:
Saying that it's a flawed gamemode is misleading, of course, but it distinctly has value, because the gamemode's flaws should act as the map designer's guideline for what their design needs to fix. In that sense, I'd say that saying the gamemode has no flaws is even more harmful.
Now, with that out of the way, here's a quick analysis of RCTK:
Reverse CTK is a derivative of KoTH - or, at any rate, it uses its timers - so, we can assume that the gamemode will be most exciting if the objective is changing hands often.
But, it's also a derivative of CTF (you must steal the flag from the enemy base), so we know that attacking the enemy base must be part of the gameplay.
Here are some factors that arise from that:
- The fact that you're attacking the enemy base is a challenge if your map is designed like a conventional KoTH map where your team's base, mid and the enemy team's base are separate arenas.
- This is because after the enemy team wins the fight at mid, you have to first defeat them at mid, then at their base in order to regrab the flag.
- Well, having to win two teamfights in a row to gain permanent objective progress is balanced as stated in that guide you wrote, Tiftid! What's your problem?
- This is KoTH. No objective progress is permanent, because once you grab the enemy flag, you're stopping their timer and starting your own - essentially reversing their advantage / the progress they've made.
- That's why normal KoTH has you grab the flag after just one teamfight - the one at mid.
- Therefore, we need to make it so that you can grab the flag after just one teamfight, but it's still stored in the enemy base.
Shorter maps tend to perform better, because by virtue of winning the fight at mid, you're automatically able to push into the enemy base and grab their flag in the time they spend retreating.
But shorter maps aren't infallible.
They work in the reverse, where the team who wins the initial teamfight at mid will be able to push forward and spawncamp.
This means that the other team has to win one fight to get the spawncampers out of their base, then another to push into their base and capture the flag.
So it takes you back to square one, in a way.
So, just making the map shorter will not immediately make it a fun RCTK map.
But something I think would have a way better shot would be a layout where spawncamping is impossible:
By having a direct route from spawn to mid that never links with a lobby, and never interacts with the capture point or the other route to mid, it makes it essentially impossible for the enemy team to push past mid and into your base, since if they try pushing down one route, you can use the other to get behind them for an unsurvivable pincer attack.
And, if they try pushing both as two equal groups of 6, you can waterfall one as a group of 12 to totally overwhelm them.
But this also works in the other way, Tiftid! It makes it too hard for the enemy team to push into your base when you own the flag, since you can use the route from spawn to mid to "get behind them for an unsurvivable pincer attack!"
Well, no worries! Just lock your team's route from spawn to mid while your team has the flag at your capture point!
The real issue I think this layout could have is walk times. With 7 seconds from spawn to the point, it wouldn't actually be that much shorter than your average KoTH map. That means that if some enemies survive the attack on mid and stall you until their teammates respawn, they can manage to get a proper defense of the CP, like an A/D point with a forward and backward hold.
This is why I chose a massive 10 seconds for the respawn wave time - it makes it a lot harder to stall for long enough for your teammates to respawn.
Couple that with intelligent map design, such as a very wide, hilly mid that's difficult to prevent players moving through if you're not holding each individual entrance into it, and you could make a map where the flag changes hands nearly every fight of every round, and point defenses will only happen with intense skill and a lot of correct decisions made in a row on the part of the players. In other words, the very core of fun KoTH gameplay.
The rest of the issues Katsu has are mostly to do with class balance, i.e. how your areas are sized for combat. In the interest of keeping this response short, I won't repeat my 16-year-old self, and will instead link you to this guide which he very sensibly wrote back then, knowing it would save his 19-year-old self a lot of time and effort down the line.
Last edited:
- Jun 20, 2023
- 15
- 5
Hi everyone, thanks everyone for taking their time on commenting on my map <3
Honestly im glad that the map wasnt completely horrible, there was at least some fun. I made this map bc i was so frustrated with the flaw of conventional ctf, where the most boring part is defending on a winning team. Im really proud of the custom logic, i have like 3 flags that i toggle between. I also made it as a break from unity, which is my normal hobby (game development is way harder than mapping).
I agree with most of the points stated above, i already have a rough rework made today. People wanted more open spaces and a smaller map, so im going for the other extreme here.
As a new mapper, im not gonna waste your time, bc ur all probably better than me anyway
It still feels a bit off to walk around, but i think im getting there.
I will be so bold and put the intel cap points either in front of the main entrance, or on top of those buildings. Surely now the intel will swap hands often
Honestly im glad that the map wasnt completely horrible, there was at least some fun. I made this map bc i was so frustrated with the flaw of conventional ctf, where the most boring part is defending on a winning team. Im really proud of the custom logic, i have like 3 flags that i toggle between. I also made it as a break from unity, which is my normal hobby (game development is way harder than mapping).
I agree with most of the points stated above, i already have a rough rework made today. People wanted more open spaces and a smaller map, so im going for the other extreme here.
As a new mapper, im not gonna waste your time, bc ur all probably better than me anyway
It still feels a bit off to walk around, but i think im getting there.
I will be so bold and put the intel cap points either in front of the main entrance, or on top of those buildings. Surely now the intel will swap hands often
- Jun 20, 2023
- 15
- 5
Im not at my pc this weekend, so it will be hard for me to show this, but another approach i was thinking of is to make a large square, with the respawn rooms and intels at the corners. Having the intel so close to spawn was a really stupid idea, especially since moving it like 2m forward would have made my map instantly play better. And j really appreciate everyone giving their opinion on my map. There were many lessons learned that u literally only learn by making a bad map. For example:
One way doors
I added those so defenders had a harder time pushing out, and defenders could more easily close the gap. The flaw is, that they are horrible for new players, and attackers cant retreat, so they arent as big of an attacker advantage as i thought. I still think there are ways to use these, but im really struggling to think of an example where i was glad a door was one way
The underground middle area
I think it looks and plays cool, but its really hard to apply pressure from an underground position, bc you always have the low ground. I think the best way would have been to lead to the intel room on an equal level, with main mid having the high ground, but its too late now, and im trying something entirely new now anyway
Something i havent figured out yet is health/ammo pack placement. It seems like those have a far smaller impact to the game than the overall level layout (or mine was just that bad)
Im glad you liked my grates Katsu, bc i put a lot of effort in making good sightlines. Its a shame the map was too long.
Thanks to the reader for listening to a new mapper, i really appreciate it
One way doors
I added those so defenders had a harder time pushing out, and defenders could more easily close the gap. The flaw is, that they are horrible for new players, and attackers cant retreat, so they arent as big of an attacker advantage as i thought. I still think there are ways to use these, but im really struggling to think of an example where i was glad a door was one way
The underground middle area
I think it looks and plays cool, but its really hard to apply pressure from an underground position, bc you always have the low ground. I think the best way would have been to lead to the intel room on an equal level, with main mid having the high ground, but its too late now, and im trying something entirely new now anyway
Something i havent figured out yet is health/ammo pack placement. It seems like those have a far smaller impact to the game than the overall level layout (or mine was just that bad)
Im glad you liked my grates Katsu, bc i put a lot of effort in making good sightlines. Its a shame the map was too long.
Thanks to the reader for listening to a new mapper, i really appreciate it
- Jun 20, 2023
- 15
- 5
Wuketuke updated Fishtank with a new update entry:
entire map rework
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entire map rework
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- Jun 20, 2023
- 15
- 5
Wuketuke updated Fishtank with a new update entry:
solved world peace
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solved world peace
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- Jun 20, 2023
- 15
- 5
Wuketuke updated Fishtank with a new update entry:
Logic finalised
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Logic finalised
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- Jun 20, 2023
- 15
- 5
Wuketuke updated Fishtank with a new update entry:
Flanks removed
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Flanks removed
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- Jun 20, 2023
- 15
- 5
Wuketuke updated Fishtank with a new update entry:
Finally an update
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Finally an update
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- Jun 20, 2023
- 15
- 5