Zinkenite

CP Zinkenite B3a

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Rexy

The Kwisatz Haderach
aa
Dec 22, 2008
1,798
Deep in the Northwestern wilderness, the Reliable Excavation and Demolition company has discovered a veritable treasure trove of a rare variety of piezoelectric crystal: zinkenite! The Builders League United, not to be outdone by their rivals, set forth into this wild expanse in hopes of claiming rights to this new-found wonder--by any means necessary!


Other download links:
(.bz2)
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1293763/cp_zinkenite_b3a.bsp.bz2
(.zip)
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1293763/cp_zinkenite_b3a.zip
 
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Rexy

The Kwisatz Haderach
aa
Dec 22, 2008
1,798
zinkenite_promotional_01a.jpg

zinkenite_promotional_01b.jpg

zinkenite_promotional_01c.jpg
 
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Rexy

The Kwisatz Haderach
aa
Dec 22, 2008
1,798
cp_zig, 3 stage cp, 2-2-3, attack/defend.

Layout in progress:

zig_layout_wip_01.jpg


Yellow represents outside areas, with lighter (less saturated) areas denoting higher elevations, violet represents covered, inside areas with the same saturation key. Teal is for spawns. Red is for death pits. Green lines represent doors. Black lines are walls and stairs, and blue lines are for ledges.

Nothing is to scale, even stages to each other, so don't take item pickups or capture points at face value.
 
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YM

LVL100 YM
aa
Dec 5, 2007
7,098
1:1 looks horrible, far too small and has a direct LoS from blue sapwn doors to the point :(

Blu's travel from 3:1 to 3:3 also looks terrible, really complex route and reeeaaaallly far considering how close red's spawn is to the point. Right off the bat I'd add twice the distance inside red spawn between actually spawning and leaving the doors.

2:1 looks ok, but red come at it from too low an angle (on your top down view), it's easier for blu to get to it than red from the entrances to that arena, which will make it an insta-cap as soon as the first wave of red die.

I'd also consider totally scrapping 3:2 since it's in a total corridor sandwich and looks pretty terrible. Plus it's just adding to the mess of stage 3 between 3:1 and 3:3. Cutting it out completely (or totally revising it) would really help stage 3.

I'll do a paintover as soon as I put some clothes on.
 

grazr

Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle
aa
Mar 4, 2008
5,442
A word of warning, i reckon there's a reason Valve have avoided 3 CP's in multi-stage A/D CP. Which may or may not have primarily allowed them to release several smaller maps to the public. In multi-stage PL the final stage usually has 3 CP's but CP only has 2 (as standard). Though the layout remains similar in both cases, presumably they leave out a potential middle CP in an effort to solidify a hard push with long travel time and limited time to complete the map.

I guess what i'm saying is, if i'm saying anything, the map will be long winded and even more work on your part for something with a specific deadline.

Personally i am considering a 3 CP single stage A/D and i'd be concerned about time management there without adding on 2 more stages as well. You essentially have a whole map and a second smaller one here.

edit: Also, your CP's have no space behind them. At least on a couple you should allow RED the chance to ambush captures.
 
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YM

LVL100 YM
aa
Dec 5, 2007
7,098
Am now clothed, so:

One thing I should point out is that yard >> corridors. Every time, if hoodoo taught us anything, it's that.
So, I've done my best to rebuild your corridors into more like yard areas whilst keeping vis at bay (very important not to build an awesome layout that sucks cause it's a straight line with no way to block vis).

I've assumed that your 'covered' areas are generally crystal caves, I've added a few places I think you need windows, whether or not you were planning windows yet I can't tell.

zig-paintover.jpg


Don't ever use full health kits on A/D, they create a really strong spot, full ammo isn't so bad but still needs to be considered very carefully.

EDIT: I've got a drop at 2:1 that is 'jumpable by blu' by which I mean they can rocket/sticky jump, but not crouch jump up, the other jumpable ledge at 2:2 is not even crouch jump height.
 
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grazr

Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle
aa
Mar 4, 2008
5,442
yard >> corridors. Every time

This.

I also feel that RED should have a second spawn at the final point. This is usually always the case with A/D. A primary and secondary spawn room.
 

Rexy

The Kwisatz Haderach
aa
Dec 22, 2008
1,798
Good things to consider guys, thanks a lot! A lot of the other things that are harder to display in a top view are things like windows, and there's absolutely no cover drawn it at all.
 
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Rexy

The Kwisatz Haderach
aa
Dec 22, 2008
1,798
Ok the first stage is up on the server, very basic, I just want to get a feel for distances, cap times, respawn times and where to place some cover. It's listed as cp_zig_stage_a_2, played tonight with at most 8 people, I'll try to get some more tomorrow. Happy New Year everyone.
 

StickZer0

💙💙💃💙💙
aa
Nov 25, 2008
664
I didn't really like the second cap, it seemed quite large and open, and standing on the cap was really awkward because you could easily spawncamp one of the doors, but you couldn't properly see at all who was coming out of the other door until they were ontop of you spamming rockets. Maybe move the cap more out into the main area so attackers can see when they're going to be attacked from someone higher up (ie coming out of the high spawn) but they can't spawncamp the lower door so spies and others can happily get out and possibly even flank
 
Feb 14, 2008
1,054
Definitely improve the transitions from CP1 to CP2, mainly the 2 on the side, and I dunno, the 2 points, especially CP1 could do with a little more spice in the layout (but not of the eye burning variety).
 

Seba

DR. BIG FUCKER, PHD
aa
Jun 9, 2009
2,364
RED was able to easily push off almost every wave of attackers, even without sentries. To cap the second point, BLU either needs a forward spawn, drastically reduced walk time, or some major height advantage, especially over the upper RED spawn exit.
 

Rexy

The Kwisatz Haderach
aa
Dec 22, 2008
1,798
Thanks for the paintovers, super, you have some really good points. Those are things I want to pay attention to. The last one might be due to some walk times I calculated.

There were some comments about walk times being too long, and so I wanted to investigate and clear this up. Far be it, from me to want to mimic maps in my design, or say that they are infallible, but I'm going to use dustbowl as the benchmark for walk times.

Playing soldier, and starting in spawn, I walked the shortest distance to each point as both teams.

*Dustbowl, stage 1, cap A = 12 seconds for blu, 20 seconds for red
*Zig, stage 1, cap A = 11 seconds for blu, 14 seconds for red

*Dustbowl, stage 1, cap B = 24 seconds for blu, 10 seconds for red
*Zig, stage 1, cap B = 23 seconds for blu, 6-7 seconds for red

So it appears to me that blu's walk times are just peachy, but the problem I see is that red needs to be moved back slightly so their walk time increases just about 4 extra seconds.

Anyone have thoughts on this? Agree/disagree, or any other general comments?
 

Seba

DR. BIG FUCKER, PHD
aa
Jun 9, 2009
2,364
I agree, RED does need a longer walk to B. Whenever BLU pushed for the second point I didn't feel any pressure as RED at all, mainly because I knew that the point is very easy to defend. I usually go solly on Zig, and with one or two rocketjumps I can be everywhere that BLU is coming from, efficiently blocking the assault. I think that putting RED's spawn where the red area is or even further may help.

Personally, I love the entire area around the second point, but I'm pretty sure that others might strongly dislike it. Soldiers have very quick access to powerful higher ground and make almost every other class their bitch. The two most problematic areas are the balcony that serves as BLU's main attack route and the lower platform right outside of RED spawn. The building behind the balcony is hard to fight in if you're facing a soldier, and if BLU can't control that building then RED will take advantage of it and block the main attack path. The lower platform, however, provides higher ground over the attackers' only other route and allows them to get eaten by rocket and grenade spam; putting some player-height walls near the lime-green lines might reduce the soldiers' power.

Oh, and I hadn't even noticed that blue area until I opened a listen server to take this picture. I played the latest version for only fifteen minutes or so, but I hadn't seen anyone use it.

Yellow is where I want a deathpit.

tl;dr

Soldiers fuck shit up around the second cap.
 
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Rexy

The Kwisatz Haderach
aa
Dec 22, 2008
1,798
Alpha 10 of stage 1, I completely scrapped the first stage and reworked it, getting a feel for both content and gameplay (as they can sometimes work together, in the case of gameplay models), trying to build the map around an concept rather than a layout that was not promising previously.

I think the first capture area is working alright, please leave your feedback if you can, I'd love to make changes based on people's suggestions--the second stage is what needs the most help.

cp_zig_stage_a_10_01.jpg

cp_zig_stage_a_10_02.jpg

cp_zig_stage_a_10_03.jpg
 
Jun 19, 2009
812
My feedback:
Overall the gameplay and the beginnings of the aesthetics are looking great.

A couple criticisms though, the left flank that blue has to attack Red's second point seems very compartmentalized. That is, it seems like a giant hallway (it isn't straight, but it only allows players to go one way without rocket jumping over the top).

It also might be a potential problem that a sniper can see almost the entire area near point 1 (except for the actual point) from blue spawn.

Lastly, this is not a huge problem since it's just in alpha stages, but the cliff parts that act as ramps require that you jump over them (easy clipping fixes, though). The rocks might also be exploitable where you can use them to jump to places you can't normally access (sentry jumping perhaps?)

Anyway, again the map is excellent thus far. I think you should make it an oriental theme :)