Wow, gameday failures...

Discussion in 'Site Discussion' started by Sgt Frag, Feb 14, 2009.

  1. Sgt Frag

    Sgt Frag L14: Epic Member

    Messages:
    1,443
    Positive Ratings:
    294
    Well, that's 5 out of 6 gamedays now where I have played all day, tested everyone else map and left feedback but when it came time to test my map the server crashes due to lack of arena.cfg file. Now I know it had to be figured out, even though there is a tut at fpsbanana and it is a 3 second fix, but it took 2-3 weeks for admins to look into it, then when a new server came up nobody had mentioned it to the host. I'm not doggin', Nemisis was very appologetic and obviuosly didn't know it needed done, and I appreciate the use of his server as much as anyones.

    The one day it did play through alot of people complained about arena mode. I did get some in-game comments but not many.

    Today most of the TF2maps.net regulars who had their maps tested early in the day split after their maps are tested.
    Empting one server so some maps had no testers and leaving the other server to be taken over by griefers who didn't want to test maps but just play the regular rotation maps instead.
    I know that some of these players are also in Europe/UK and the time gets pretty late for them. But some of them are also very good mappers and if they'd leave some of the earliest spots open and help mappers in the US test it would only be good for the community.

    Today basically devolved into this:
    [​IMG]

    which was aimed at me because I wanted to test my map which had a reserved slot for instead of the map that loaded due to regular server rotation. Of course it was blamed on Arena mode, me 'crashing' the server, me making sucky maps...then the above

    The map before mine was engi griefing by putting teleports in lava so team members would die when teleported. When asked to stop the engi refused, he also said 'don't take it, I'm testing too'.
    Testing what? How many people will take his teleport? It's already been pointed out to the author that the lava needs no build, so what value to the players or the author does to continue griefing players throughout gameday?

    I can see the need to 'try and break the map' to help the author, but once it's been established that something is broken and a player is asked to stop that should be it.
    -----------------------------

    Personally I feel that not having an admin around and letting gameday devolve into this type of behavior is not only dissapointing but looks bad for the community as a whole.

    I understand some people don't like arena, maybe they don't like my map, or other maps. But arena is an official Valve mode, this site is supposed to be dedicated to custom TF2 maps and supporting those who make them. Leaving during a 'bad map' or gamemode you don't like doesn't help the community or other mappers grow.

    Last week I went through ALOT of trouble Dling, loading and running admin on sunday when I had planned to map due to server crash mid-gameday. I loaded not only maps that were requested to load but all maps that hadn't been tested on Sat due to crash.
    I even did last second loads for one author who updated last minute, but this author failed to even show to test his map.
    After all that work I got 2 comments at most on my map. Nobody that played put any comments in my discussion thread even though I commented on all maps I tested Sat. I didn't notice comments for the other maps either.
    One author showed up just in time to ask if we tested his yet, I loaded it right away for him and gave him 15 minutes extra. Yet when I restarted the rotation so we could get more feedback he left right away along with everyone else.

    So much for 'community' eh? If people like it or it is early in gameday it gets tested, if not forget it. We even tested a map today that seemed like the same version last week, and yet other maps got pushed back for it and not tested again. 'We' also have days where some mappers get two slots. That's fine by me, but why don't they get an early and late slot instead of both their maps being in front of others. Spread it out a bit so everyone gets feedback.

    This thread may sound bitchy, it probably is, but ask yourself. If you have put in as much effort as I have trying to help others out, trying to get some test time and in the end you get nothing on a regular basis would you feel the same?

    I applaud the fact that this site has alot of great info and mappers. But there really seems to be a hiearchy of favoritism that surrounds this place like a plague.

    If anyone feels that I am wrong in my assessments please let me know why.

    I also understand there are alot of kids playing, and these days it seems like kids have little respect or foresight and most don't even have common courtesy. But when people start getting harrassed, people start bitching about a map sucking, or being ugly it seems like we are losing sight of the entire reason for gameday. To test maps and make them better and help authors grow as map makers.

    I have seen several maps by people who are learning to map that have improved quite a bit throughout the gamedays. Mostly due to constructive critisism and people actually playing the maps to give that feedback. I look foward to seeing maps from these authors when they start a new one with all they have learned in their minds from the get go.
    But this will only happen if we remain fair and unbiased during gamedays and give good feedback.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 5
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2009
  2. NovaSilisko

    aa NovaSilisko L42: Life, the Universe and Everything

    Messages:
    502
    Positive Ratings:
    129
    On the bright side, the griefers on my map inspired me to fix it :D
     
  3. YM

    aa YM LVL100 YM

    Messages:
    7,099
    Positive Ratings:
    5,745
    I pretty much agree that today didn't go so well, two servers is a bad idea, it allowed neither server to properly fill up with people willing to test, which inturn isn't as fun for the few people on and they'll leave sooner so that's going to have to change. Since we were on two servers Immortal was also working on both servers and tweaking stuff behind the scenes so he wasn't available all the time and on top of that the number of admins was effectively halved because of the dual servers.


    My personal gripe with arena is that it messes up gamedays almost without fail, I don't know whose fault it is, neither do I actually want to place blame on anyone. but It's the single most annoying thing each weekend. getting gamedays to run smoothly hs been quite a struggle and for each time it to crash because of the same predictable thing gets incredibly stressfull.
     
  4. GrimGriz

    GrimGriz L10: Glamorous Member

    Messages:
    774
    Positive Ratings:
    133
    I think that was me :) I know I woke up late so that explains the showed up just in time to ask thing, and my GF was giving my chit so I couldn't stick around. But hey, at least I showed up, and I was there long enough to play Eze's map a lil.

    I can say I know how you feel :) Two weeks ago the server was "down" due to a valve update...and a simple restart had straightened my server out so I offered to guest host the gameday. The following week I didn't even get a spot in the rotation, and Immortal-D just kept the same thread as if the testing Ravidge and I guest-hosted never even happened. Felt a lot like "screw you, it's only official if I do it." (while I don't think that was his intention, that's what it felt like).

    I agree that there needs to be an iron-fisted admin present for gamedays, particularly if it's an 'official' event and not guest-hosted.

    I really think there needs to be greater divisions of gameday (different days, different categories).
    1: it may keep the servers more active than on just Saturday
    2: 10 maps x 20-30 minutes = 3-5 hours (and we usually have more than 10)

    Maybe alpha gamedays and beta gamedays, as well as EU and US server (identical) gameday events.
    edit: arena gamedays?

    I'd also support keeping track of a # of testers on the map for each map and other similar statistics (plugin maybe) so that less tested maps can get better timeslots and such the following week.

    As I've said elsewhere, I'm also very much in support of a point-system where authors are awarded points for testing other authors maps, and also would add points for forum-feedback on those maps (where the points can be used toward good slots on gameday).
     
  5. Sgt Frag

    Sgt Frag L14: Epic Member

    Messages:
    1,443
    Positive Ratings:
    294
    Well, the obvious reason for arena failures is obvious.
    It is that the arena.cfg file needs to be placed in the same folder as the regular maplist.cfg

    I WILL place the blame - VALVE. Seriously, why? This gets everyone and it's such a small simple thing, in fact I think I'll wrtie a letter to Valve. I'm sure they could fix it in minutes.
    Other than that it wasn't a server/admins fault, it was just that nobody expects it, and really why should they. Valve didn't do it for PL.

    ------------
    I'm tossed up on the split server thing. It has benefits and drawbacks.
    30+ minute slots are great. That can depend on maps. 20 is OK for arena as they are small. 30 is still better for feedback but 20 is adequete, might even be better due to the disdain some people have for arena. I think that might change some, arena is better now with the crit fix, it's easier to stay alive longer.

    But 20 minutes for some maps, multi-point maps, TC maps, large PL maps. Usually ends with only one team attacking etc.. is really not enough. This coming from someone who hasn't even tried to test their own map of this style. Sometimes it can take several weeks or non-gameday playtime to get familiar with the map so you can play it well on gameday.

    Also, having 2 servers probably benefited more people due to longer slots and also the fact that we probably averaged 30+ players most of the day which can't happen on a 24 man server. There have been days where getting on the server is tough.

    Of course having admins hop back and forth and do twice as much work is a difficulty with 2 servers.

    I'd be more than happy to help with admin duties. Of course I haven't contributed so I can't. This seems a little backwards to me. Afterall, being an admin is necessarily a 'bonus' unless you get something out of it. IMO you guys should look at admin rights more for someone who can be trusted to show up and swap maps per schedule while not having access to to any special functions.
    Leave the contributer perks to things like the private forum, blogs, icons, whatever. It's not that I don't want to contribute but I have bills...
    ---------
    and I'm not pointing fingers at anyone particular (Grim) :D, I understand the calls of nature and whatnot. I have bailed on some maps during the day to go get lunch before my map came up. I don't always leave feedback in everythread either. I think it's more of a 75% thing. If everyone plays/gives feedback on 75% of the maps then everyone will get some kindof feedback.

    But to me this is more of a personal do as you feel golden rule. Of course it can never be enforced nor would I want it to, just more of a request to help everyone else out.
    ------------
    Maybe a good way to run 2 servers is to run the same maps in an almost opposite rotation.

    So players could hop on either server and play a UK or US based map early or late. That way if you can't make the first map on one server it would be near the end on the other. This might also help to keep players on a server late.
    As an example Youme's maps are well liked and always run early (UK thing). The time slots are pretty favorable to me for playing so I can jump on at 11 am and play his map, or I could play another and save his for late in the day. As it is popular maybe more people will stick around to play it, thus testing some less popular one late in the day while waiting.

    Maybe they could be mixed up a little though so it's not an exact mirror. Of course this gets back to all maps on each server and short timeslots. Possibly timeslots could be more about map type.
    ie:arena, melee maps, small maps could be 20 min.
    large maps, pl, multi stage 30 minutes.

    Also, as mentioned above, if a map has no significant changes maybe it shouldn't be played 2 weeks in a row. Retesting maps for minor changes when the server is full and some maps aren't getting tested seems a bit selfish.
     
  6. Ezekel

    Ezekel L11: Posh Member

    Messages:
    818
    Positive Ratings:
    244
    i would have come today, however, when frequently checking the forum i saw "Map Test Gameday February 15: 02-15-2009 " all week long. (note that when checking on the thread, i'd click latest thread in the events forum, since i didn't expect there to ever be 2 seperate days)
    i kept checking this thread's starting post, waiting for a time table or something.

    fact is i only just realised just now, by going back and looking, that this was in fact a seperate thread.

    so basically, i missed my maps getting tested completely due to the fact that i didn't catch that.

    in my defense, i've played and commented for every map test day since joining the community, and always have stayed till the end (except once when my connection died... but that wasn't my fault).

    yeh i know it sucks having 2 maps from one guy who doesn't even turn up, but i'm just as miffed about it as you, since i missed seeing them getting tested. (and unlike others, who have more prestige preceding them, it's very hard for me to get any of my maps to have more than 2 people on them anyway).

    so sorry i wasn't there... i'll try to be more careful reading threads next time.
     
  7. GrimGriz

    GrimGriz L10: Glamorous Member

    Messages:
    774
    Positive Ratings:
    133
    Since both of the servers are US servers, I'd say the best way to go about it would be to start one, and not do anything on the other until the first one is full.

    Ultimately, I'd still like to see 2 gamedays, an EU and US...both starting at say 11 am in their respective timezones. I don't think UK people should get early US slots because they're in the UK. (i see why we do it with only US servers, but with EU and US servers, they shouldn't care what slot they get on the US server).

    I think 3 separate events per gameday per server is the best way to go:
    Alpha test event
    Beta test event
    Arena alpha & beta events

    Maybe with an hour or two between events so ppl have time to attend events and also do other nonsense.
     
  8. Sgt Frag

    Sgt Frag L14: Epic Member

    Messages:
    1,443
    Positive Ratings:
    294
    Well, the problem with that Grim is if Arena maps get split onto another server they just wont get played. That's basically like saying lets put 'good maps on one server and shit maps on another'.

    You gotta mix them all up so people play through the day, not just pick the server/maps or playstyle they like best.
     
  9. Vigilante212

    Vigilante212 L7: Fancy Member

    Messages:
    481
    Positive Ratings:
    33
    You should limit gamedays to 5-7 maps first come first served, maps played on the previous gameday are excluded from the next gameday. One map per mapper per gameday. Test the alphas first then the betas going by the revision number. I think gameday sat and sunday is a good idea, sunday will need to be earlier though. Give people at least a 3 day heads up for when testing is going to happen. This way everyone gets a chance and gameday doesnt drag on 10 maps at 20 minutes is still over 3 hours.

    Maybe test alphas on sunday.
     
  10. YM

    aa YM LVL100 YM

    Messages:
    7,099
    Positive Ratings:
    5,745
    Definitely not. First come first served is a terrible way to allocate slots since there are always people waiting to post their maps in the thread the instant its out and there are those who are using all the time they can to work on the map before posting it in the thread. Doing first come first served will exlude this person every time.

    The post above you:
    Personally I feel the most sucessful gameday we've had so far was the one where each map was getting 20/30 minute slots and it lasted 6 hours on a full server except for the last map.
     
  11. Rexy

    aa Rexy The Kwisatz Haderach

    Messages:
    1,795
    Positive Ratings:
    2,367
    I don't think having two servers competing for players on gameday is productive...1 server per gameday since we can't seem to keep the one server full the whole time. If need be, why not have 2 gamedays, 1 saturday and 1 sunday?
     
  12. Nineaxis

    aa Nineaxis Quack Doctor

    Messages:
    1,767
    Positive Ratings:
    1,404
    We need one stock server with an admin on it all the time. One rotation. Split it into two gamedays if need be, or run the one rotation both days.

    Today sucked. A lot. No one wants a gameday on an instaspawn server that changes to Mach4 every 20 minutes. No one.

    MrAlBobo has offered his server a lot, we should use it. It is stock, he's an active community member and the sole administrator of it, it isn't tied to a whiny clan that wants to go to a stock rotation.
     
  13. uma plata

    uma plata L6: Sharp Member

    Messages:
    298
    Positive Ratings:
    86
    I'll attest to engie griefing today. I would have stuck around otherwise
     
  14. GrimGriz

    GrimGriz L10: Glamorous Member

    Messages:
    774
    Positive Ratings:
    133
    What are you getting at? I personally don't like arena at all, so I completely agree with your sentiment...but what are you expecting - good feedback from people who hate arena?

    I assume there's mappers and players who like arena, and a separate event catering to those people might be better for everyone involved. Arena is the polar opposite from instant respawn...but to me it's a deviation from standard gameplay that is just as far just in the opposite direction.
     
  15. Fearlezz

    Fearlezz L10: Glamorous Member

    Messages:
    787
    Positive Ratings:
    242
    I agree. Didn't go so well for me either. But I think more admins could fix the problem. It was pretty full on my map at.. 2pm? on server 2.

    I dont think there is anything you can do. Cause putting the servers together into 1 would mean less time for each map. And noone wants that.
     
  16. Cerious

    Cerious L7: Fancy Member

    Messages:
    455
    Positive Ratings:
    133
    2 Servers was a very difficult choice for many players, and as a result each server had 6-8 people per team instead of 12. There was a server with insta-spawn, and switched to Mach4 a billion times, and most players just left when it got to a map still in alpha stages (silo_mountain, hoover, etc.) that didn't play well. The point of Gameday is to test and find flaws, not bitch about one maps error and try to get the admins to switch to the next map, which they hope is near-final. Even distribution among servers could work well, I suppose, with both servers operating and mapswitching simultaneously between the near-final maps and alpha maps.
     
  17. Vigilante212

    Vigilante212 L7: Fancy Member

    Messages:
    481
    Positive Ratings:
    33


    Its pretty much first come first served now so whats the difference? You can always play 6 hours worth of maps if enough people are on, but testing a map with less then 12 people doesnt really work well.
     
  18. Altaco

    Altaco L7: Fancy Member

    Messages:
    485
    Positive Ratings:
    121
    You know what? I know a guy who runs a bunch of servers. I may possibly be able to convince him to let us use one of them for gameday. They're very reliable and he's very experienced at running them.
     
  19. Zmathue

    Zmathue L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    72
    Positive Ratings:
    14
    Heres how I think gameday should be.


    Oh and all the maps need to be loaded by someone without any of the maps because there are maps constantly missing on the server or redirect.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2009
  20. Sgt Frag

    Sgt Frag L14: Epic Member

    Messages:
    1,443
    Positive Ratings:
    294
    What I'm asking for is unselfish mappers who will play through everyones maps and give feedback positive or negative (but conrtuctive crtis always best) whetehr or not they like that gamemode. This helps mappers as a whole.

    Personally I don't care for you map all that much BUT i have played it and gave you feeback about 3 times now, I even gave YOU extra time on a map/playstyle I don't personally care for to HELP YOU. Not because I wanted to play that map.

    That is what gameday is about. If you just wanna play your favorite map or style go play it and leave room for testers on the server.

    PL is OK but you know how many hours I have played that soley to try and help the mappers? It's not like I think, Oh goody, ANOTHER PL map.

    First, most players left when there were server issues. Whether it was a non-play because of server.fg (hoover) or because dustbowl or some map that wasn't on gameday started. The admin needs to remove regular map cycle for gameday and have the arena_mapcycle.cfg in the same folder as the mapcycle.cfg. That would solve everything ECEPT a server crash and lack of admins.

    Nobody left Hoover because it was alpha or plays bad, in fact about 8 players waited 15 minutes for and admin to show and change the map. When the server had issues today we jumped to MrAlBobos and played hoover for 30 minutes and nobody complained about it being alpha or playing bad, I think we had fun.
    Unfortunately I must've forgot a Quick DL of Borax last week and the server crashed, but I wasn't expecting to run it this weekend or I would've been better prepared. I think I didn't have a quick DL ready because it was probably one of the maps that got tested last week so it was lower priority at that time. (When I did a last second gameday)

    But if players are gonna leave because an alpha or bad gameplay what is the point of gameday to begin with. Half the maps we play don't even have textures yet.It's not just to test maps you wanna play, its to test. Now I'm sounding like a broken record.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2009