Would this idea work?

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by WhiteWeasel, Jul 29, 2015.

  1. WhiteWeasel

    WhiteWeasel L1: Registered

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    So I'm still in the grey about making TF2 maps seriously, while it's a game I enjoy, I'm not sure if this is a spur of the moment thing. But At least I have something to do in my free time. Anyways, I joined this forum to discuss design the elements about a map, and where they succeed or fail.

    Anyways, I wanted to make a suggestion about one of my favorite maps, CTF turbine. The main 2 problems I'm able to see for it is:

    1) The left hallway (when invading) to intel is a frequent meat grinder, and a big choke point. There is the other hall, but that is right next to the enemy spawn, making big coordinated pushes difficult.

    2) The center room is a big choke point. Since all three paths to the enemy side of the base is though the center room, the team that controls center shuts down the other team.

    So If i were flobster (as unofficial rebalancing is frowned upon here apparently), this is what I would add:
    [​IMG]

    I made a more or less to scale replica of the map on grid paper and made my additions in color. The initial entrance to this addtion was supposed to be below the platform in the hallway, but I realized that would be a very cramped, low doorway. So instead I would move it to above where the scout is pointing so there could be a proper sized door there. Once you go though that door way there will be a set of stairs going down below the map, going down the stairs you make a right turn, and from then, to your front is an alcove for cover with a small medkit, and to your left is a short hall leading to the lower turbine room. The lower turbine room will have a lowish ceiling, (though taller than a vent, high enough to jump without smacking your head). Obviously the lower turbine room will have three cylinders for the respective turbines above, the flooring would be steel grating with water below. In the lower turbine room, there are two team sided small halls that lead to a maintaince room with a medium ammo pack in the corner. Diagonal from it, is a drop-down to the underwater section of the turbines (the red squares) that goes to the enemy maintenance room.

    So with this addition, this in theory would knockout two birds with one stone. It would add an alternative way to the enemy intel that bypasses the main room, and adds a flanking path to the hallway to help alleviate the meat-grinder-syndrome.

    I'd just like to know from more experienced mappers if this idea would work to see if I properly understand map design theory. So in a hypothetical scenario that this became a reality, would improve the map, or make it worse to play on?
     
  2. radarhead

    aa radarhead Hands out ratings like cheap cigars

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  3. WhiteWeasel

    WhiteWeasel L1: Registered

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    Huh, I guess I'll check it out to see what's changed. I'm didn't mean come off as doing this as a serious rebalance, not to mention there is another turbine revision as well. (perhaps it would be better off to offer this idea to those guys instead). I was just speculating how/if my idea would work.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2015
  4. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

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    There've been even more Turbine adjustments than those two, although I can't remember them all. I really only liked stevethepocket's version, honestly. I meant to bug him about finishing it. Hopefully he'll come in and see all this and do just that.

    Adjusting Turbine is a fine project and we'll support you in it. In fact, I think we'd support you in adjusting any official map, because that's what we do. The thing is that adjustments to official maps aren't that useful. Very few people want to play them (what is or is not balanced is subjective) and most edited official maps are KOTH or 5CP and meant for competitive leagues. Public servers don't really run them because most players frankly don't give a shit and it isn't worth forcing the download. That being said, tinkering with official maps is a great way to accelerate your own learning and get some good, low pressure practice in.

    I'm not sure we look down on edits to official maps as much as we used to, but I'll lay down some reasoning since I've seen you ask questions about this previously:
    1. It's probably a better use of your time to just make your own map, primarily, because you'll learn more when you make everything from scratch and get an understanding of how to take a map from alpha to beta to RC
    2. Sometimes, players enjoy the shitty balancing on whatever map you're "fixing" and don't want your version anyway
    3. It's difficult to really make something stand out when you're just editing something that exists already
    4. They are trivial to make, so in the early days of TF2M a lot of users wanted to flood the forum with simple, uninteresting edits to 2fort or something
    5. At this point, whatever you want to do to a map from 2007-2014 has probably already been done
    Edits to official maps that get played are gimmicks (like the poopy Hoodoo, the flipped versions of maps like Badwater/Retawdab, etc), or maps edited for comp players, like VIaduct Pro or Bblitz Pro (idk if bblitz pro gets played anymore actually). Since no one really plays CTF in comp anymore, and Turbine is kind of used by pubbers to DM anyway, the idea doesn't strike me as something that fruitful. Plus there've been multiple attempts to improve Turbine already; I looked at your plans, but I can't really say how they will be better or worse than existing stuff.

    What I would say to do instead is scrap your whole idea for fixing Turbine and just make a map that addresses the problems you think CTF maps have. Play lots of CTF maps. Play our custom CTF maps in impromptu tests and game days. Search the forums for discussions on CTF maps as best you can to find older discussions on what we think does/doesn't work about CTF if you'd like. Basically, just make a new map entirely and iterate on it until you've either reached a point where it's the map you want or you decide it's no longer worth pursuing for whatever reason. I think that'd be a lot better both as a learning experience and generally for the community map environment.

    I'll add this as a last note: CTF fucking sucks imo. I don't think it's fixable in TF2. I think Mannpower was probably a concession to that on some level. Doublecross is the best CTF map in the game--I think everyone would agree with me, probably--and even it has problems. I know some people like CTF, but I see it as a huge chore to test and sometimes I think it makes our servers lose players prematurely. I don't want to tell you to never make a CTF map if that's what you want to do, but I do want to instill the knowledge that I've gained as a player and creator that CTF easily degrades into misery and torture for myself and others. If you're looking for a simple map to make as your first, try KOTH or Arena or even a small asymmetrical CP map (2 or 3 cp maybe). There's a lot of KOTH, and Arena isn't really played, but at least there's room for improvement in KOTH and people like it, and Arena at least contains some modicum of strategy and danger.

    Although--Mangy's CTF maps were always great. His concepts for ctf_atrophy and csf_estate/csf_retreat are the closest I've come to enjoying CTF. Invade CTF is also fairly fun (start with a neutral flag and deliver it to the enemy base). You could try those. They've also got problems, but those problems are less explored and therefore perhaps more fixable. Dunno.

    Let me add: you've correctly identified several major problems with Turbine, so that's a good sign. However, Turbine is also the simplest map in the game, so it's one of the easiest to analyze. From the perspective of a level designer (not a player), identifying issues with other existing maps would be a lot more challenging and interesting.
     
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    Last edited: Jul 29, 2015