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KotH Working_Class B4

Werewolf's 2016 April Fools contest entry

  1. Werewolf

    aa Werewolf Probably not a real Werewolf

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    Working_Class - Werewolf's 2016 April Fools contest entey

    About The Map
    This map was originally designed and built for the 2016 tf2maps.net April Fools mapping contest, thus is a 'joke' map. For the most part it is a normal King of the Hill (aka KotH) map. It supports a maximum of 32 players in a medium sized, mirrored symmetry play space.

    In this map only one class can capture the point at a time. An internal logic system will pick a class, and only members of that class will be able to capture the control point. If a player of the wrong class tries to step into the capture area, everyone on the capture point is pushed off into a pool of molten steel!
    The problem is that no-one knows which class is able to capture! The only way to find out is by trying to capture and hoping the pusher does not activate! Once the point has been captured, a spiked crusher squashes everyone on the point and the maps internal logic picks another class.

    Because of the increased chances of death, the default hold time has been increased from 3 minutes to 5 minutes. Also once the point has been captured by the allowed class, their class icon on a public viewable board will be greyed out, leaving all the other possible classes highlighted. This helps players keep track of which classes have previously been allowed and which is may still be. No class will be picked twice until all 9 classes have had a go, then it picks again at random.

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    Last edited: Apr 7, 2016
  2. Werewolf

    aa Werewolf Probably not a real Werewolf

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    Having now played this against other players, a few issues have been spotted which I will address.
    • The core mechanic of the map was not clear at all. No one new that only one class at a time can cap.
    • Players found it hard to figure out which class was allowed to cap, as the only clue was a single spectator camera that dead/spectating players could see. Living players can not see it.
      • On a side note, some players did try communicate and work out with each other which classes it would be, but most players were simply confused.
    • Players can hide behind the pusher and wait for another players to trigger it, capping while the pusher is extended. What I thought might have made a nice flank route ended up being somewhat of an exploit.
    • Weapons can block the pusher from closing, which actually sped up the map as players could then safely cap the point.
    • The buzzer sound (played each time the pusher opened) became annoying and repetitive very quickly.
    • The cap time was too long. I had extended it from the default 3 minutes to 5 minutes as I assumed that players would have to spend time working out which class could cap before contesting it properly and thus might need at little extra time for it to happen.
    Even though the B1 version submitted for the contest, I will still fix any lingering issues so that it can be played properly in the future.
     
  3. Werewolf

    aa Werewolf Probably not a real Werewolf

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    Version B2 Change Log:
    • Halved the time to cap (was 8, now 4)
    • Removed the pusher entirely:
      • As well as pushing players off the capture area it was meant to destroy buildings in its path, which it failed to do.
      • The pusher has been replaced with trigger_push brushes to deny entry to disallowed classes.
      • Disallowed classes are shown a game_text message telling them their class "cannot capture the point right now"
    • The pusher brushes have been converted to a func_detail, with 'Out of Order' decals applied on and around it. Players can therefore still get behind it to use it as a flank route.
    • Removed the trigger for the falling screams. It got too annoying too fast.
    • Restored the capture time to the default 3 minutes.
    • Added game_text_tf to display on round start to instruct players the only one class can cap.
    • Replaced the glass wall/window in each teams spawns with class info boards.
      • These are copies of the class info board found in the spectator cam, which allows players to see which classes have already been able to cap, in a place where they can instantly respawn.
      • The same message displayed in the game_text_tf on round start is also displayed as a decal above the class icons. The same decals are also beside the capture area.
      • Swapped the class icons by Diojoestar with the uber class icons by Valve, as it looked odd to have red-teams portraits in blue spawn.
    • Replaced the 2 medium ammo + health packs at the top of the crane controls with small variants.
    • Moved the two sniper cover props away from the cap area.
    • Added some props along the top sides of pit to block the sightline along them.
    • Fixed the motd/title card still referring to 'KotH_Classy' (the working title before working_class was picked.)
    • Added doors central path between spawn and mid. When a team caps the point, their door will close and the other teams will open. This is to make it a little harder for the defending team to defend
    • Added team-filtered trigger_add_tf_condition brushes, set to TF_COND_DEFENSEBUFF (26) over the capture area. These are only active for the attacking team, giving them a small defensive buff while capping.


    Read the rest of this update entry...
     
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    Last edited: Apr 7, 2016
  4. Muddy

    Server Staff Muddy Muddy

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    I really don't think this concept works at all, to be honest. It's a little hard to understand and it only serves to make the gameplay a lot more slow and tedious for no good reason. That and also it promotes everyone switching to one class, which is never fun to play against (ever had to fight off a scout rush? yeah). Plus it's not fun to trek all the way to the point, be denied access, then have to trek all the way back to spawn to switch class.

    And, personally, I don't want to have to play a class I don't enjoy just so I can complete the objective.
     
  5. Davekillerish

    aa Davekillerish Lvl O: Orange Member

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    You make some good points, but I like the concept of this map, the new one not the instant death for not knowing one.
    It supports class diversity in the same way the contracts do, you are either wanting to play a certain class because you like the class, or another one your less fond of that you might have a lot of fun with, to cap the objective, or you can wait it out until the class you enjoy most is able to capture the point. (heavy rushes are much more terrifying, especially on pl maps..)
     
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  6. Yrr

    aa Yrr An Actual Deer

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    but what if you have to play spy to cap

    and the enemy team can play whatever class they want

    so youre forced to be an uncloaked spy out in the open to cap and they have like 3 heavies focusing the point

    and then once you cap the next class is soldier or demo or something and they can just stomp and take it back easy
     
  7. Muddy

    Server Staff Muddy Muddy

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    Not really, in fact it does the opposite. It promotes everyone switching to one class.

    Except I never have fun playing as a class I'm not fond of.

    See, that's a problem. It's artificially slowing down gameplay by refusing access to most classes, and being discouraged from playing as my favourite class is not fun. And maybe that wouldn't be much of a problem if the map were fun for general deathmatching, but it really isn't.
     
  8. Werewolf

    aa Werewolf Probably not a real Werewolf

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    I did expect situations like this, this is why the attacking team has a defense buff from a team-filtered trigger_add_tf_condition brushes, set to TF_COND_DEFENSEBUFF (26) over the capture area. That way if it there is only one player capping, they have some defense where as a defending player, even if they can get on the point, wont get that buff. Plus there is nothing stopping the rest of the attacking team defending the capping player by attacking those who attack the capper.

    No one is forced to change class. It's each players choice weather they want to play the objective or defend against the other team.

    I have 2 ideas for balancing in future versions:
    1. Instead of players having to guess which class, have the map tell you. Each time the crusher comes down, it declares "the new class will be X". Then players have a choice of whether to play as that class, the counter to the class, or stick with what they were. This is part of the reason why there is a crusher to kill the players once they have capped, it gives them a opportunity to switch class now that their class is not needed to cap.
    2. Instead of a general defence buff, each class has its own perk. I'm not sure how feasible it would be to do or which perks to give each class, but as an example, maybe the spy could be allowing to cap while disguised (though not cloaked). Maybe the Heavy gets a speed buff to he's not a stationary target, or the medic is allowed to cap while ubered.
    I might not do both of these in the same update, and I think I will do idea number 1 first as that I have an idea how to implement already.

    Speaking of balance changes, what did people think of the closing doors? Having watched the demo back a couple times its already clear to me that it needs to be signposted more, and made clear why it has shut in the first place as well as alternative routes. But what I want to know if the concept of shutting the doors works for balancing the map or not.
     
  9. Muddy

    Server Staff Muddy Muddy

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    What might be interesting is if you allowed two classes to cap instead of just one. That way you can promote teamwork and classes who don't do well on their own (eg spy) can still have some backup when trying to cap.
     
  10. Werewolf

    aa Werewolf Probably not a real Werewolf

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    I can see that using up an extra tonne of logic and entities. Each class as it stands has a filter and 2x trigger_push brushes. Each extra combination of classes is another set. By my math, if each class can be paired with 1 other class (2 man teams), that's a total of 36 different possible combos.
     
  11. Werewolf

    aa Werewolf Probably not a real Werewolf

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    Just an idea, but what if I replaced the trigger_push that keeps banned classes off the point with a trigger_stun? They are allowed on, but won't be able to fight back?
     
  12. zahndah

    aa zahndah professional letter

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    I believe it is actually 42 combos, if you are making the new 2 not be either of the previous 2 that could cap (7 (9-2) x 6 (7-1)). Also the stun sounds like it could be more annoying even than the push, because if you expect the push you can step off of the point quickly if you accidentally step on, but with stun you are instantly vulnerable.
     
  13. Werewolf

    aa Werewolf Probably not a real Werewolf

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    Version B3 change log:
    • *TRIAL CHANGE* The map will now tell players which class can capture the point. This is an experimental change and may be removed.
      • The class that is allowed to capture will have a team coloured frame around their class picture.
      • A game_text will appear on screen telling players which class can capture
      • A voice line will also play, narrating the same line as the game_text.
    • Removed the clipping brushes from above the large metal door frames. These were leftover from when the map was in alpha.
    • Extended the 2 crane platforms to the walls on both sides.
    • Lowered the strength of the trigger_push zones 400 (was 1000). This should stop players from getting on the point, but not catapult them away.
    • Re-textured the computer room with neatral colours and props, making use of neutral props from FernFerret's "Gray Gravel Co. Spytech Props 1.0" and Rexy's "Switchboard 2015-08-30"
    • Lowered the game_text that appears when the wrong class tries to capture the point so it does not appear in the middle of the screen.
    • Updated the hint text decals to reflect the changed mechanism.
    • Added warning signs and lights by the shutting doors.
    • Halved the lenght of the protective walls between each teams front spawn door and their door to mid. This should allow team to see the if the door is open by looking though the fence section.
    • Set the crusher to start open. The crusher will also stay down for 3 seconds after each cap to allow its sounds to be fully heard/played.
    • Added mini-crit zone for the attacking team. Now the attacking team receives an offensive and defensive buff at the same time, akin to being under both the 'Buff Banner' and 'Battalion's Backup' at the same time.
    • Minor texture and cubemap updates.


    Read the rest of this update entry...
     
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  14. Werewolf

    aa Werewolf Probably not a real Werewolf

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    So having watched the demo recording of B3 and reading the feedback, I wanted to respond to peoples comments point by point. So here we go.

    Both @Muddy and @Corvatile pointed out the yellow 'Work in Progress' and the 'TF2map.net' decals (seen on the left) were not lit correctly.
    [​IMG]
    Using 'UnlitGeneric' was intentional as this map is on the Steam Workshop and I wanted to make it clear to users who might have downloaded it though there that the map is not finished and is a work in progress. None of the signs seen (apart from the arrows) will be in the final version.
    As for it being badly cropped, yep. It was knocked up in a few minutes. I don't need that decal looking perfect, just noticeable. That's why its also large.

    @Muddy also asked that there be some warning that the point will kill you, while @Yrr commented [the] "map punishes players for playing the objective", both referring to the crusher. I will say now that I am happy to remove the crusher from the map, though I will explain why it was added in the first place. Quite simply, I thought that once a class has been able to cap the point they wouldn't be needed for that job again, so killing people playing that class would give them a chance to change class.
    What I will probably do is add a point_push near the centre of the point (but slightly off-centre) and have that activate for half a second, as I did find in testing that if I stood in the exact centre of the point all of the trigger_push brushes would pull equally and I would actually stay in one spot, even as a class that shouldn't be allowed on the point.

    @Yrr also said "this exploit still works" (setpos -32 -388 10; setang 302 -391 45) but I fail to see what exploit you claim to have found? Would you care to elaborate please? For those of you who didn't/can't look, Yrr was behind the former pusher (now a func_detail) which I left as small flank route.

    @Umaroth-24 pointed out that paths around the point are pretty narrow. OK fair point, I look into fixing that though I would like @Yrr to elaborate on her comment "the layout is flawed". This is my first KOTH map so please enlighten me. What about the layout is flawed?

    Finally, @Cargo_Tokens said "Don't make it so I lose my disquise when I cap as spy". Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't that a normal part of TF2, that spies can't cap while invisible or disguised? The only thing different here is that there are 2 trigger_tf_add_condition brushes over the capture zone. One applies the Buff Banner effect while the other applies the Battalions Backup effect, to give players a combined offensive and defensive buff. As far as I know, those effects aren't applied to spies while disguised or invisible.

    Otherwise if anyone has any other comments to add then please leave them.
     
  15. Cargo_Tokens

    Cargo_Tokens L2: Junior Member

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    I meant when I walked onto the point as spy I instantly lost my disguise, I didn't shoot or do anything but I lost it. On a regular point I would lose my disguise myself.
     
  16. Yrr

    aa Yrr An Actual Deer

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    That route definitely did not feel like an intentional route. If you intend to keep it, make it an actual route that is both visible and does not require crouching under things.

    Mostly theres a lot of dead space that doesn't serve any purpose to a team playing the objective. A koth should offer a few routes to the point with different speeds and height advantages/disadvantages, which each serve a different role (main choke, quick flank, slow height advantage, etc.). There should be minimal space that doesn't contribute to the objective and there should be space between the initial route decision and your approach to mid to change your mind about where you wish to go. Look at some official koth maps and note the usage of each of these principles within them.
     
  17. Muddy

    Server Staff Muddy Muddy

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    The problem I have with this map (besides the core only-one-class-can-cap concept, which I still maintain is fundamentally flawed) is that mid is just a few narrow-ish catwalks surrounding a pit of lava, with not a lot in the way of cover or height variation (besides a few crates and barrels here and there), and the buildings on either side are mostly just glorified corridors filled with staircases. In fact the whole map feels like a series of corridors, even if it doesn't look like it. Maps like Viaduct and Lakeside tend to be more open-ended, with more opportunities to take alternate routes and elevated areas to get the drop on (literally, in the latter case) unwitting enemies.
     
  18. Werewolf

    aa Werewolf Probably not a real Werewolf

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    Bear in mind that as only one class can cap at a time and the map tells people which class can cap, it's reasonable to assume that everyone knew you were a spy anyway. Therefore disguised or not, they would shoot at you.
     
  19. Werewolf

    aa Werewolf Probably not a real Werewolf

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    So having reflected for a bit on @Muddy 's and @Yrr 's last comments, I'm thinking that maybe I should have simply altered an existing Valve KotH map to add in the 'one class only' mechanic, because that's the core of the gimmick right there. It could have been done on any map, but I chose to make my own.

    That said when I was working out the original idea in my head, I figured the simplest solution in terms of game logic and entities was to use a func_door pusher, and adding that to a Valve map would make it stick out too much.

    In any case if I want to keep trying to make this map work I will have to redesign from the ground up, and frankly I'm not sure I want to do that, at least not for this map.

    What I think I will probably do is fix up the below items, give it one more play test(?) and call it done. I don't want to say 'abandon' it, but certainly leave it for a while.

    To do list:
    • Fix the voiceover lines - These are currently 40kbps .mp3 files played though ambient_generics. I will see if I can recreate them with better audio quality and use soundscripts to implement them in the map.
    • Remove the crusher, replace it with a point_push to evict players from the point.
    • Remove the func_detail remains of the pusher, and probably bring the wall back a short distance away from the point to give players more space around the point.
    • The computer room above can be shrunk a little to match.
    • Remove the WIP decals.
    • If there is any thing else, feel free to suggest it
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2016
  20. Werewolf

    aa Werewolf Probably not a real Werewolf

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    Version B4 Update
    • Removed the crusher. When the point is captured the previously allowed class will be gently evicted from the point.
    • Widened the play area around the point.
    • Removed the func_detail remains of the pusher, pulling back the wall away from the point
    • The computer room is now smaller, matching the wall below.
    • Removed one of the trigger_add_tf_player_condition zones, and changed the condition of the remaining zone to 79 (TF_COND_OBSCURED_SMOKE - The player has a 75% chance to dodge every time damage is taken; MISS! effect then occurs.) This is so spies are not revealed on the point if cloaked or disguised, while still giving a defensive buff.
    • Removed the 'Work in Progress', tf2map.net, and testing decals.
    • Removed the air horns that played when either team capped, as these made it harder to heat the voice over lines
    • Remade the voiceover lines as higher quality .wav files (were previously 40kbps .mp3, now 352kbps .wav)
    • Delayed the intro voiceover line so that it plays just before the point is unlocked.
    • All voiceover lines are now played though a soundscript over channel CHAN_VOICE2, which should make them easier to hear.
    • Added clipping to the props in the underground
    • Added medium ammo pack at the bottom of the stairs to the underground.

    Read the rest of this update entry...
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2016