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KotH Woodrot_a1

Discussion in 'Map Factory' started by Tupperwits, Sep 25, 2012.

  1. Tupperwits

    Tupperwits L2: Junior Member

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    Hello there
    This is my first map. My confidence in it keeps changing but I hope you like it.
    I've noticed a lot of people saying that breakable entities are a risky and uncommon move but I hope it can work and if not I can always remove that element.

    Scenario -
    Out in the alpine forrests is a small radio outpost. It has been abandoned and is starting to decay. Alpine/swamp style (wet, rainy and overgrown)

    Current problems:
    - The water has the magenta shine to it which I don't understand since it has a cube map.
    -I don't know how to make the skyboxes lighting match up
    -Stickies don't stick to the boards. I've seen boojam snark say to use a filtered trigger_vphysics_motion with velocity limits but I can't figure out how to do this. What I've achieved so far makes them vibrate wildly.

    Areas I'm not sure of:
    - Too crowded in the underneath
    - Placement and size of certain ammo and health
    - Drop down doors in front of spawn
    - Amount of damage the floor boards can withstand
    - Respawn and capture times
    - The "log" over the ditch under the platform tunnel side

    Thank you. I look forward to your comments
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2012
  2. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

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    Capture time: stick to Viaduct's time. Players are used to it, 99% of KOTH maps use it, it feels right.

    Water: you added a cubemap but did not build the cubemaps. See this thread: http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=16452

    func_breakables: The only map in TF2 that uses these is Watchtower. The glass in the eponymous tower is breakable, which changes almost nothing about the gameplay, and beyond that it's kind of a bad arena map. The degree to which you use them is interesting but untenable in TF2. Being able to break 95% of the floor area around the point is an interesting idea that no one will enjoy. In multiplayer games this introduces too many uncertainties, not to mention the software bugs that come with it, such as stickies, explosion radius, and other things. Beyond all that, some of the boards are breakable and some aren't. Whenever something in a map or game can be interacted with differently -- in this case broken -- you need to visually separate that thing from everything else. So having a couple boards by the doors that don't break will be confusing.

    Underground: Yes, too cramped. What are those things all over for no reason? In many places I can barely fit between them. This is, however, kind of a motif with your map. Many of the hallways on your map are tiny and tube like, which won't lead to enjoyable experiences.

    Drop down doors: The real problem with this isn't that it's a drop down -- though that's not great. It's more that the doors open directly onto the point. Take a look at official KOTH maps and you will see that the spawn is set back a ways from the point. Because of this, the areas to the side of the point are almost completely worthless. Holding them does nothing; it's far better to simply control the point, which is trivial because your teammates are pouring out of a faucet behind you. Even Nucleus fixes this issue by setting the spawnroom away from the point. The secondary problem is that higher tier players will want to rocket or sticky jump out of spawn, and having tiny hallways and a drop down as the only exit is going to severely limit mobility. Though in this case, I am not sure mobility is as important as a couple of sentries guarding every entrance onto the point.

    I will say that the brushwork looks very nice and the entities work as they should, which is outstanding for a first map. Good job there.
     
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  3. Limeaide

    Limeaide L2: Junior Member

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    Did you link a cubemap to the water? Having cubemaps built isn't enough, you have to have a cubemap linked to the water brush.
     
  4. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

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    Don't link cubemaps to anything ever. It's pointless and I would not be surprised if it broke something.
     
  5. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

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    Linking the cubemap to certain faces is fine, especially water.
     
  6. Tupperwits

    Tupperwits L2: Junior Member

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    The basic idea was that the boards would break in the areas people came from the most, forcing them to choose a different route. I knew it was a risky idea and I'll take the advice of a veteran when you say it won't work.

    They were supposed to be rocks, creating a cramped area good for pyros and heavies. I obviously went over board. It's not as bad as when first did it but I completely get your point. When you refer to tube like tunnels is it like the bits into the middle areas? the tunnels with the health pack in? or all of them?

    I kind of wanted a map where you strategically hold the area with health, like in Lakeside however the health room on lakeside does lead imediately onto the point. As for rocket and sticky roll outs, I'm not sure how I could open it up to allow that.

    Thank you C:
    Is there anything I can do to salvage what I have so far? or should I take this as a learning experience and start a new one?
     
  7. fubarFX

    aa fubarFX The "raw" in "nodraw"

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    the engine links cubemaps to faces all the time :| not sure what could go wrong there.
    also linking cubemaps is essential to remove reflection seems.

    I'm kind of off topic here but w/e
     
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    Last edited: Sep 25, 2012
  8. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

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    If something is meant to be rocks, just use rock models. I don't see why you'd spend time making that trapezoid only to replace it with a model later.

    My sincere suggestion, and I mean this as well as I can, is to start a new map from scratch. I don't think many people will enjoy playing this very much and the feedback you get will end up being so harsh that you might get discouraged altogether. You appear to have done all this on your own, which is great, because it means you can look for and solve problems on your own, and present a well-lit, functioning alpha for testing. You've already got a leg up on 98% of new mappers.

    From this project you learned the tools and maybe a bit about design. Now take that and make a more traditional map. Keep the spirit of creativity you've got here, but try to keep it in check as well. I think you could make something fresh and new without resorting to gimmicks like func_breakable if you put your mind to it.
     
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  9. Tupperwits

    Tupperwits L2: Junior Member

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    Don't take this as me being unable to take criticism because I appreciate all the help you've given me so far. I know it's not a playable map and there's a lot wrong with it but I think it still has some learning value still.

    I'm going over haul the entire map without the gimmick and build a new one using the old shell. I've started comparing it with the other mirrored Koth maps and I think I can see where I think I could improve it with a little extra work.

    So what do you reckon? Remove the func_breakable, make it bigger, change the building shapes, simplify some areas, move entrances and exits, get rid of the rocks and tunnels, remove the side areas and move the spawn back. See how much that is an improvement and if the second alpha is as bad as the first then I'll move on to a new project. I've learnt about building a map, now I'll have a second whack at making the design fun?

    This is my first attempt and it isn't great, it just seems a shame to waste it, you know?
     
  10. xzzy

    aa xzzy

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    You don't have to waste it. I guess you might get to a point where you change so much you might as well have started over, but there's nothing wrong with that. This is in theory a leisure activity so do whatever makes you happy.

    My theory about mapping is that there's no bad ideas, just bad implementation. So keep plugging away at it and eventually you'll get a map that people enjoy.
     
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  11. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

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    This is good a very good mentality to keep.

    If the idea doesn't work now, and it's because you aren't familiar with the program or the design theory of the game, don't chuck the idea. Do something else, and come back to this idea when you feel you are ready.
     
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  12. Egan

    aa Egan

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    This isn't completely relevent to this map, however way back when - when I was working on my own map with a weird idea - I tried all I could to get it working. Looking back now, I could probably figure it out. At the time I didn't know about timers, so I used tracktrains on a looping circuit with onpass outputs from the paths. I had some of the tracktrains activate other tracktrains, but thats where I had difficulty. It just wouldnt work. It was some limit in the engine, you'd use timers not tracktrains.

    So yeah, I now know how to make it probably, but I put so much time into trying to make it work I don't even want to touch that vmf again. :drool1:
     
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  13. Tupperwits

    Tupperwits L2: Junior Member

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    Looks like I don't have a choice about starting again. My computer broke and they wiped the hard drive when they fixed it :C