Why do you think tc_hydro wasn't very popular?

Discussion in 'Team Fortress 2 Talk' started by Kwzby, Jul 11, 2015.

  1. Kwzby

    Kwzby L1: Registered

    Positive Ratings:
    This probably has been posted before but the title speaks for itself. Why do you think tc_hydro wasn't very popular.

    In my opinion it was the fact that Territorial Control was basically Attack/Defend but both teams have to attack and defend.
    Also, that Territorial Control is/wasn't a mode worth investing time into to justify making new maps for it.

    In my eyes Territorial Control wasn't a good idea but tc_hydro was a good idea on paper as far as theme and aesthetics but its execution was poor.

    At least Powerhouse is ok.
  2. CommodoreKong

    aa CommodoreKong

    Positive Ratings:
    It's not fun having the map constantly reload after a point is capped, since you have to set everything up again. It's also very easy to stalemate, as one team can win one part of the map, then the other team wins the next part of the map and you move back to the first map.
  3. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

    Positive Ratings:
    It's just 5cp with a lunch break every time someone caps. The routes between points are really bad. That's about it.
  4. Muddy

    aa Muddy Muddy

    Positive Ratings:
    It was also really confusing, having the map essentially re-arrange itself every round.
  5. Vel0city

    aa Vel0city func_fish

    Positive Ratings:
    It's either a steamroll or a stalemate, neither of which are fun.

    People mostly love Hydro because of the looks. It's still the best looking of the lot.
  6. YM

    aa YM LVL100 YM

    Positive Ratings:
    The mid rounds have no push/pull, everyone just runs headlong into each other and it's a big spammy death tunnel and ugh.

    The other rounds have too much push/pull, a sneaky player can use the 2nd or 3rd route that is seeing least traffic to sneak and ninja cap (or the teams each take opposing routes initially and miss each other, leaving both on the undefended points), OR one team hunkers down for the long haul and no ground can be made because of their turtle.

    These scenarios lead to tons of stalemates, and tons of super fast caps. Neither of which are really that fun.

    I don't think it has anything to do with the confusion level, most players seem to get what to do when playing (even if 90% of people don't actually understand HOW it works) and understanding what to do when playing is more important than understanding the metagame.
  7. UKCS-Alias

    aa UKCS-Alias Mann vs Machine... or... Mapper vs Meta?

    Positive Ratings:
    Hydro is one of the easiest maps to understand because its most of the time only 2 paths.

    But it has a bad design to start with balance wise. Players get funneled in thin paths. This makes them easy to stalemate as spam stops alot. In goldrush the first corner after cp 1 shows this exact same problem (hence heatmaps showing a huge red dot there).

    But the next problem is that you have a hard time to push once you get past that area as suddenly enemies can attack you from a 90 degree angle. yet they can still focus on that single part. Combine that with a few extremely strong sentry spots and you are asking for a stalemate.

    And then we also have the problem that respawn timers are implemented the wrong way. They made the times shorter to increase the tension near the end. But that does exactly what a 32p server does. it makes it stalemate more often.

    The constant rebuilding of defenses each round is a positive thing. As that is actualy a system hindering stalemates by giving the enemy team a chance to push early and prevent it from building. But at the same time that is close to steamrolls.

    Hydro is just flawed at too many parts. Doom at least might have fixed some of the issues by having that midcap each stage. As that makes it play more like koth, which is an ideal system for a map like hydro.
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  8. MaccyF

    aa MaccyF Notoriously Unreliable

    Positive Ratings:
    I would love a territorial control - koth map, holding the point would work perfectly to signify having taken control of an area, you'd also prevent the annoying stalemate/steamroll of hydro. The only downside is that every stage would have to be symmetrical, which would make it much harder to get the really diverse aesthetic hydro has.
  9. EArkham

    aa EArkham Necromancer

    Positive Ratings:
    I used to love hydro back in the day. This conversation though has me wondering what Valve intended to be intrinsic to the tc_ prefix.

    We have only the one official map, so it's difficult to say. Is it that it plays like several different (albeit poorly balanced) maps in different rounds? Or is it as the "territory control" name implies all about capturing the most points by the end?

    I feel like a well designed, smaller map with multiple points (say, 4) that worked like domination mode would be a much more coherent experience. Perhaps even have capturing a particular point change certain map elements (doors open, water rises, hazards activate, etc). But then that falls more in "well done domination" rather than "territory control."

    If you're going to change the map layout extensively like hydro did, I think that requires simplifying the layouts (like, MvM levels of simple) and turning each section into a mini-death match arena. Hydro definitely had a learning curve, and treating it with standard map "rules" (eg, big areas seperated by corridors) resulted in stalemates galore. Eliminating those two issues would go a long way toward having an improved tc_ mode.
  10. Pocket

    aa Pocket func_croc

    Positive Ratings:
    I wonder what Hydro would be like in domination mode. All points active at once except the team bases, team spawns shift seamlessly depending on what's been capped like in 5CP, round doesn't end until you unlock and capture the other team's base.

    Actually, I bet that's what they started with, and then they realized there was no way to make it clear where to go to make progress.