What would make a "good" TDM map?

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by Belli, Dec 11, 2012.

  1. Belli

    Belli L69: Deviant Member

    Positive Ratings:
    There's quite a few maps that are very popular in pubs, yet widely regarded as terrible. Prime example would be 2fort.

    It's the TF2-equivalent of an action-flick, it just looks nice and has lots of explosions, managing to stay entertaining while making not too much sense.

    No one really worries too much about the objective, there's no urgency to get the intel, when you know the other team won't win the match right away.

    But what makes 2fort so popular, and could its concept of casual deathmatch work in a decent map?

    1. Well, for one, it actually looks really nice. The lighting, the detailing and textures, everything seems to fit.

    2. Target practice.
    You know where the snipers will be, where the engies will set up. there'll be plenty of them, and countless opportunities to wreck both. As soons as you leave the base, you're in the midst of battle. Ideal circumstances for deathmatch.

    3. Defense.
    You can also rack up a lot of kills without going far, as the enemy will have to cross your path to get to the objective. Twice. Again, it very much encourages TDM.

    4. Challenging task.
    Actually playing the objective can be pretty challenging, as the other team will have a huge advantage with their spawn covering your path.

    Same goes for hightower. You don't have to walk far to the frontline, and the tracks go through the other base, where the enemy will have the high ground.

    Now, getting from entertaining to good is another story, but taking the concept of a dense map with intense figthing on all frontlines out of the usual "TDM" shouldn't be too hard.
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  2. Freyja

    aa Freyja It hurt itself in it's confusion!

    Positive Ratings:
    The problem with making a TDM with these ideas is that it's already been done, in 2fort. There's no reason why players should move to a new map. Differences and unique combat scenarios in unique locations are what draws people to new maps. The motto "don't fix what isn't broken" comes to mind. 2fort is very broken from our standpoint, but for someone who wants to just blow things up it isn't.
  3. Deodorant

    Deodorant L6: Sharp Member

    Positive Ratings:
    As a dumb casual F2P pubber, I find 2fort really wuite boring. The layout confused the hell out of me at first, and almost everything outside the central area is just flat boxes and cramped corridors. I don't even think it's all that pretty from a visual standpoint either. I mean, it's stylistically consistent and uses the facade layout well, but it just doesn't strike me aesthetically the way maps like Sawmill, Upward and Gorge do.

    I do, however, think there's a different map that pulls off deathmatching pretty much perfectly: Hightower. The absurd height differences, enormous sightlines and the deathpits-right-at-the-chokepoints should make the map a miserable unplayable mess, but somehow it all comes together and results in an enjoyable experience no matter which class I choose to play.
  4. GPuzzle

    GPuzzle L9: Fashionable Member

    Positive Ratings:
    2fort is beautiful, but boring. The only thing I find really astunning in the map is the giant bunker of world domination near the intel. Layout-wise, it sucks.
    Deodorant, you might remember the concept of the CA.
    2fort is basically a countryard with sewers, then another CA, splits, reconnects in another CA and splits again directly at the intel room.

    Nucleus and Hightower are the winners.

    Nucleus create three areas of combat.
    Lower ground with top route - not very cramped, not too open.
    High ground with balconies - cramped, balconies are open.
    Outside the buildings - not even related to cramped, open.

    Hightower greatest part is the spire. Basically the connection.
    Blocks sightlines, works as cover, and it is a spire!
    All spire maps play really good.
    Badlands, GPit, Thunder Mountain Stage 3, and of course, Hightower.
  5. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

    Positive Ratings:
    Go walk around 2fort. It's the best detailed map in the game.
  6. Sergis

    aa Sergis L666: ])oo]v[

    Positive Ratings:
    around here - absolutely nothing.
  7. WolfKit

    WolfKit L3: Member

    Positive Ratings:
    Any map should have something to focus gameplay, some reason to take risks. If the only objective in the map is to kill more people than the opposing team, getting yourself killed just hurts your team, so picking one spot and staying there and killing anyone who gets near is a much safer strategy than getting exposed looking for a fight. Sentries that can't be destroyed safely would be better to avoid, because there's no need to get near.
    Having a point or a payload or an intel to throw yourself at gives a reason to venture out from safety, and something for engineers to guard.
  8. phi

    aa phi Let Pain Be Your Guide

    Positive Ratings:
    What first came to mind for me when reading this article was Grazr's article on immersion (http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=11905) - if you haven't read that, you should.
    2fort is a well thought-out map that utilizes density and prop placement near perfectly. The placement and narrative that comes with every placed prop (or unplaced props) really make the map hit home detail-wise. It's not like those maps where every corner of the map is detailed as dense as possible; rather, 2fort uses only areas where the eye would be drawn to create detail. There's even a completely blank wall in the BLU base, no props or anything on it, and noone ever notices it because its placement is in the perfect spot.
    tl;dr, 2fort is a wonderfully detailed map but really lacks substantial gameplay. I personally think Hightower plays better as a deathmatch-like map because it is more interesting (and open) in its level design.
    My two cents.