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What makes a map enjoyable for all classes?

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by marnamai, Dec 8, 2007.

  1. marnamai

    marnamai L1: Registered

    Positive Ratings:
    Hello, I am Marnamai.
    I am trying to create a CP/TFC hybrid map for TF2 (duh :p)
    But I want to discuss some points with you first first.

    What makes a map playable & enjoyable for all classes?

    * Engineers need a few good sentry spots is what I hear a lot, but what defines a "good" spot?

    * Soldiers are better when they can attack from above => gives them an advantage with the splash damage.

    * Spy's need places they can hide to cloak/uncloak/change disguise ect.

    * Snipers need a open area so they can cover a long range. But other classes need cover from the sniper. Mostly the other team has an equal spot to countersnipe.
    Or a secondary route that is safer but takes a longer time to travel trough would be a good alternative.

    * All "explosive" classes (demo, soldier) and scouts have the ability to get on secondary routes they can reach with (nade/rocket/double) jumping.

    Please add as many to these or correct my statements.

    Other questions

    * What exactly are chokepoints and how do they influence gameplay?

    * Personally I think having more then one route to the intel/flag is the best.
    But too many on the otherhand make it too hard, if not impossible, to defend the intel. How can I assure a good ballance?

    CP/TFC questions

    * I want to have one or more control points, once a team has captured the points, a gate to the enemy's intel opens. Once they cap the intel they score a point.
    Is it possible to create such a gameplay mode?
    I tried messing around with the entities but most of my attempts ended up in TF2 crashing :/

    sorry for my spelling ...
  2. Hawk

    Hawk L7: Fancy Member

    Positive Ratings:
    I actually compiled a list of this sort of stuff as I got to work on my first level. I wanted to be able to remember these things as I did the layout of the level. Each class has its own set of issues, and I think a good map allows the use of each class' advantages as well as places for them to be hindered by their weaknesses. This keeps people switch classes within the round and keeps the game interesting. The result is a map people can keep playing and playing.

    - needs places where he can double jump to, thus shortening the distance he must travel in relation to other classes.

    - needs areas he can rocket-jump to.
    - give him some higher perches. Soldiers greatly benefit from being above the action and firing at the feet of targets.

    - benefits from enclosed spaces like tunnels. A map with too much open space makes this guy far less useful.
    - Pyros love ambush points. So putting corners in tunnels and providing things to hide behind is good.
    - ammo placement is vital for Pyros. Know where to place ammo packs for pyros to pick up, but not too much.

    - the Demoman can benefit from the same rocket-jump areas you're making for the Soldier. The Demoman can actually get higher from his sticky-mine jumps, at the cost of more damage.
    - give the Demoman places to use arc-based attacks. Create things he can lob his grenades over. This could be rooftops with holes, barracades, or higher-up windows.

    Heavy Weapons Guy
    - Don't make him run out in the open for too long. He's an easy sniper target. Give him places of cover from the ideal sniper locations. If anything, just make sure he has brief moments of vulnerability instead of a long, impossible run toward his goal.

    - Medics benefit from cover and corners, just like Pyros do. Give then things to hide behind as they stay locked on their healing target. A map that is too wide-open yields many dead medics.

    - need a good place to perch and snipe people. It should be open enough that they are at risk as well.

    - can benefit greatly from passages behind enemy lines. Being able to sneak into enemy territory then turn around as if they're one of the enemy is beneficial because now they've got a lot of stabbable backs in front of them.
    - needs recharge points where he can hide to recharge his cloaking ability. It's especially good to have these en route to sniper locations and sentry locations.

    - needs ideal locations for his sentry, but also possible ways to destroy a sentry in these locations. Distance can influence sentry placement. Engineers don't like to put sentries where a Soldier can easily stand out of its range and fire rockets.
    - carefully consider ammo placement. Where you put your ammo can influence where an Engineer will start building his things. It's good to make the Engineer travel a little or expose himself to grab more ammo. But make sure it's available.
    - make sure there are safe nooks for teleporter placement. Teleporters that are placed in the main traffic will be easily destroyed.
  3. Shmitz

    aa Shmitz Old Hat

    Positive Ratings:
    Currently, it is not possible to have both the CP hud icons and the CTF hud display on screen at the same time. As soon as you point a control point master entity in, the CTF display will disappear to be replaced by the CP icons.

    While it is still technically possible to do what you want to do, feedback to players for objective status suffers greatly.
  4. Snipergen

    Snipergen L13: Stunning Member

    Positive Ratings:
  5. spaceweasels

    aa spaceweasels

    Positive Ratings:
    I created a little tutorial for you (and anyone else for that matter), on adding working control points in CTF games. You can read it here. Hope that helps.
  6. Hawk

    Hawk L7: Fancy Member

    Positive Ratings:
  7. Intraman

    Intraman L4: Comfortable Member

    Positive Ratings:
    As I understand them, choke points are places in which the action is squeezed into. The best (or rather worst) example would be custom map called "floodzone." It basically has one thin area where everyone must pass through (usually getting massacred in the process). Good choke points focus the action into a certain area usually resulting in tough, fun, close-in battling. Used effectively they can really enhance gameplay making the match fast paced and fierce. However used poorly (like in floodzone) they can really really bring the game play to a stand still, and make it very boring.
  8. A Boojum Snark

    aa A Boojum Snark Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado

    Positive Ratings:
    This is not something easily definable. Sentry positioning is probably the most strategic aspect of the game (since they can't be moved afterwards) and includes lots of parts, including but not limited to:
    Can targets be out of range and shoot at it?
    Will targets be too close? (particularly pyro, heavy and demoman can destroy them much faster if they are near)
    How close is the nearest ammo pack? (and is it small/medium/large? mediums are good, smalls are near useless, large are :drool: )
    Can a dispenser be placed next to the gun without being in the way or easy to kill?

    Furthermore, sometimes a spot can be good just because the enemy isn't expecting a gun to be there, even if all else points to it being a bad spot.
  9. Logo

    Logo L3: Member

    Positive Ratings:
    Think about all the ways you can kill a sentry gun. Make a space that limits or hinders those ways and it'll be a good spot for a turret provided that there is some counter to it and it's not completely unfair.
  10. marnamai

    marnamai L1: Registered

    Positive Ratings:
    Thanks a lot for all the reply's. I 'll be sure to check out that tutorial ;)
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