What makes a good Koth Point

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by MoonFox, Mar 22, 2016.

  1. MoonFox

    MoonFox L10: Glamorous Member

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    With the blunder that was Pathos; I am redesigning the entire layout of the map. Before I get all that far, I would like to get a consensus of what you guys think is a good koth point, because I here the general complaints on its too open, or too enclosed. So, my curiosity is to design a koth point that fits.
     
  2. MoonFox

    MoonFox L10: Glamorous Member

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    note: I have an idea of what to do, but all the koth feedback I see is about the point being lackluster
     
  3. RodionJenga

    RodionJenga L5: Dapper Member

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    I submit for your consideration this terrible mspaint edit I had on hand of some notable koth points (badlands, probed, viaduct and lakeside)
    koth cap layouts.jpg
    In the second row, barriers are in green and height gradients are in blue.

    I don't wish to make a dissertation on this, but there it is.
     
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  4. SleepKiller

    SleepKiller L1: Registered

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    Not sure how well I'd be able to communicate my knowledge on the subject but here is some general design theory on it.

    In my experience when playing TF2 a good control point in KOTH is one that makes players want to stand on it.

    Consider these examples one from Suijin and one from Harvest.

    Suijin
    Harvest

    Both of these points are placed under severe height disadvantage and in the case of Suijin also feel quite claustrophobic. The problem here should be quite apparent very quickly Soldiers, Demomen or anything really can easily (and safely) kill anyone trying to capture the point. Whenever I'm playing on these maps I almost always just run right past the points, there is no reason I would want to be on them I can easily be killed, have little chance to defend myself and to top it off if I do capture it I'll just be giving myself longer respawn times.

    People not wanting to go near the objective isn't something you want in any map. So let's see what Viaduct does instead.

    Viaduct

    The only height advantage onto the point is provided by the small rock in the middle, but it is easy for players to see anyone exploiting it and is no where near the height of Suijin or Harvest. Meaning anyone on the point will see the enemy (so they'll feel like they were fighting them instead of just getting killed by them) and because of the significant reduction in height they also have a chance of winning the fight.

    Next the important thing Viaduct does is make the point area advantageous to be on by using a smooth height gradient to reach it. This does two main things for the map that are relevant in this context.

    Firstly experienced players won't just label it as a death pit and as a result secondly there is a much higher chance of teams working together around the objective as opposed to just playing the game as though it was TDM.

    The other thing you have to always be careful of is sightlines but that relates as much to other parts of a map as it does mid. Looking at the differences (which I'm not going to do because it is outside the scope of this post) between Viaduct and the competitive version of it (Product) is worth it when designing and understanding these. As a general rule you want around 2 sightlines onto the point with cover for players to use against the Snipers.

    Also I looked at your map so I know you haven't done this but don't put health packs around the point otherwise the position provided by a good point can become too strong.

    So in summery you want:

    -Your point to provide a solid, advantageous position for players on it. Basically don't be Harvest, Suijin or Arctic. (Apologies to the mapmakers for the indirect attack that statement constitutes. You guys and your hard work is awesome.)
    -To keep those gosh darn Snipers in check.
    -To make sure that you have one (in some cases two) secondary way onto or around the point.

    I could go into a lot more detail on stuff but I've babbled on incoherently long enough. Perhaps someone else will come along and say all this in a more clear manner.
     
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  5. Aeix

    Aeix L3: Member

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    In a nutshell, considerable height differences to make it interesting, enough cover/walls (or height!) to keep the sight lines a medium/small size, and an interesting and unusual character to the point that will make it memorable! :)
    Good luck
     
  6. henke37

    aa henke37

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    Incidentally, both suijin and harvest are arena maps that have been modified for koth. Try not doing that?
     
  7. Muddy

    Server Staff Muddy Muddy

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    You could also look at 5cp mids, since for the most part they work pretty well as koth mids (see: Badlands, Vanguard)

    Personally I'm not that fond of Viaduct's funnel-everyone-into-one-tiny-spot method of designing mid points.
     
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  8. Requiesta

    Requiesta L1: Registered

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    My favorite koth maps all have one thing in common, a lot of routes to a medium sized point. I've never played on a map with a small, enclosed koth point that I really liked (I tolerated it for other reasons but, yeah). I've never played on a map with a wide open and large koth point that didn't turn into sniper wars 2016. Middle ground is best here.

    In short, it's fine to be enclosed as long as there's room to maneuver around and it's fine to be open if the distance doesn't promote 12v12 sniper warfare.
     
  9. MoonFox

    MoonFox L10: Glamorous Member

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    thanks everyone