What do you like about any good 'KOTH' map?

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by AppleJim, May 22, 2012.

  1. AppleJim

    AppleJim L1: Registered

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    Hey there, quick question - what do you like about any good 'KOTH' map?

    I'm trying to make my first map (baby steps) and I've been thinking about KOTH layout design. There's maps like Nucleus or Sawmill where you have 'free' access all around the 'hill' and then there's maps such as Viaduct, with a sorta more linear layout (spawn > spawn-yard > routes/yards > hill < routes/yards < spawn-yard < spawn). For my map, I want to incorporate the Viaduct layout. However, I'd quite like to listen to your point of view on the matter? ( i.e. What is it that keeps KOTH interesting to you? How far should the distance between spawn to spawn be? etc. etc. ) Basically I want to know what you mappers think makes a KOTH map 'tick'.

    I appreciate anything that you can offer on the subject.
     
  2. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    I seem to prefer KoTH maps where the point is inside a building. Possibly because there's less chance of being sniped or taking rocket spam from miles away. I dunno. It seems to force more tactical approaches and this makes things more interesting.
     
  3. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

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    I've been trying to figure out how and why koth works for like a year and a half

    I've discovered nothing
     
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  4. The Wiggin

    The Wiggin L2: Junior Member

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    Although I only have little experience mapping, I do play a fair amount of tf2 and run regular pugs etc.... based on these I think a Koth maps cap should be looked at as the mid from a 5cp, viaduct for example relies heavily on push and hold style mechanics and subsequently forces a team to work together and be co-ordinated to achieve success, nucleus on the other had is all over the shop, and heroes can win a lose games. I think good Koth maps should avoid this and encourage "team" work rather than individual moments of glory, subsequently I would personally study 5cp mid point and discover what makes them work and then try and translate this into a Koth map.

    Just my opinion. Good luck with your map.
     
  5. bob+M|M+

    bob+M|M+ L6: Sharp Member

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    Regarding just the center cap point, I love a mid that is also suitable for MGE 1v1 soldier vs soldier battles, but without the great heights like the cargo boxes on granary. For example viaduct you can really maneuver around the middle rocks, peak from side to side, jump onto the rocks, peak over the rock, it gives you safety and yet you are so close to the action. Same with the boxes on the sides of the cap, you can single jump onto them. This makes playing a class like Heavy much more interesting when you can jump on things, shoot over things, and immediately fall back or push forward. Those low, jumpable obstacles make for a great part of mid.

    Watch from 2:00 to 3:00 to see what I mean
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP-6tvuCuhk
     
  6. yikitama

    yikitama L1: Registered

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    I Think it's mainly based on preference. Koth works the way you want it to. Nucleus is a more linear, basic "start at two ends, go in one of three directions, win" and viaduct actually has more pushback oriented design, with more dynamic play. i prefer viaduct style, but it'd be cool to see i viaduct style map with stronger flanks, maybe similar to badlands.
     
  7. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

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  8. yikitama

    yikitama L1: Registered

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    You mean like harvest right?
     
  9. The Wiggin

    The Wiggin L2: Junior Member

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    I cant even think of any others :/ well at least others that have external areas.
    Please remind me? strewth, thats sad :(
     
  10. Deodorant

    Deodorant L6: Sharp Member

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    As I've struggled with learning proper map design by building and rebuilding a koth map, there's one question that has begun to bug me increasingly.

    Why the fuck does Nucleus work?

    I mean, besides being slightly spawncamp-friendly, it's a perfectly functional and enjoyable map. And yet, almost everything about the concept seems like a terrible idea by an optimistic first time mapper:

    - Most of the map takes place in a giant, open room with three different height levels (four if you count the roofs that Demomen like to hang out on), all of which have sightlines to each other across the map.
    - The entire middle of this room is a giant death pit.
    - The control point is suspended over this death pit, and only accessible by four long, straight, completely unprotected catwalks over the pit.
    - The map has basically no courtyards and compensates by having huge spawnrooms, though that's a comparatively small oddity.

    So, um, yeah.. How did this end up being a decent map?
     
  11. henke37

    aa henke37

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    By the simple fact that it is so big. Most fighting will happen all over in the big room, it becomes near impossible to watch two sniper ledges, a bunch of roofs, cover positions, the bridges, the enemy spawn and the point at the same time. The height differences also makes a difference, while people sure can fight between levels, they simply tend not to. After all, people don't look up.
     
  12. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

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  13. Deodorant

    Deodorant L6: Sharp Member

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    But Snipers tend to thrive on maps where they can stand in some unnoticeable area and have sightlines to the more commonly used areas, no? Especially if the distances are large but the walkable areas aren't. I mean, if I saw some guy with a post count of < 20 submit an alpha version of Nucleus here (assuming Nucleus didn't exist), I'd just post a link to the thread about common mapping mistakes and be on my way.
     
  14. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

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    I don't know, there's just too much shit to pay attention to and nothing is actually dark (except parts of the lowest area, which also have the worst lines of sight). It's really trivial to get into a protected, guarded area where sightlines are cut and flank the snipers.

    I agree that it doesn't seem like it should work and there's plenty of people who will tell you it doesn't. I don't have a concrete answer for you.

    I don't think Nucleus could have been made here.
     
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  15. Sergis

    aa Sergis L666: ])oo]v[

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    i just hate them all :mad:
     
  16. Sergis

    aa Sergis L666: ])oo]v[

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    we've kinda gotten to a some kind of consensus on layout style, a standart style which works well and isnt deviated much from. this is why i like playing new maps by random guys - their layouts are somewhat refreshing (unless they suck completely that is :p ) and remind me that there is a lot more playable stuff than what i usually see here.
     
  17. AppleJim

    AppleJim L1: Registered

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    I think people have lost a sense of making your map stand out. Most use layouts and themes that have been worn out over a long time. It's like they don't want their map to stand out. That's not to say that every map made for TF2 is like that, but many are. It's something that I think every mapper should aspire to create: a ray of light that inspires happiness inside, a fresh feeling for new gameplay. I am disappoint.
     
  18. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

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    I agree. And half the time you get someone who is also relatively new linking to that damn thread I made. It's exactly why Nucleus couldn't be made here. Barnblitz wouldn't have been made here. If we had actually tested Lakeside, we would have blown it to smithereens. Any kind of creativity is kind of stamped out, you know?
     
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  19. Deodorant

    Deodorant L6: Sharp Member

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    Ok, cool. I'll ignore everything you say about Sanitarium from now on. :D

    Anyway, I understand why you'd blow Nucleus and Lakeside to smithereens, but what sets Barnblitz apart? It's my favorite payload map, but I would think it follows the conventions used here.
     
  20. Sergis

    aa Sergis L666: ])oo]v[

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    they may stamp us out but they will never stop the doom maps