What could make 3CP even better?

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by Moonrat, Feb 17, 2016.

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How much do you wanna bet Moonrat is gonna do a 3CP?

  1. 20

    2 vote(s)
    11.1%
  2. A bunch

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. ur mums house

    10 vote(s)
    55.6%
  4. More

    2 vote(s)
    11.1%
  5. none

    1 vote(s)
    5.6%
  6. if he does that ill end him becuz this is what imma use the make the bettersest 3cp of all time!

    3 vote(s)
    16.7%
  1. Moonrat

    aa Moonrat The end of an era

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    HAPPY 500TH TO ME KIDDOS!

    That is what I've made just now! 500 unique posts, some better than others....

    Regardless, that's a pretty good number to reach, even after 1 and a half years of visiting this site! Though this isn't a history lesson about me, this is something else.



    Any of you remember Eturnius? The first released entry to the Dynamic CP contest, and had an okay layout? Welp, it was my first 3CP map. Powerhouse was kinda novel at the time, and I decided to jump onto the bandwagon.

    Of course, the end to this bandwagon crash was NO finished 3CP maps. It doesn't even seem like anybody has gotten close. (Infact I think I got the closest to an artpass, how sad is that?)

    So why is that the case? Why does nobody finish 3CP maps, or make very good ones? Is it because nobody likes 3CP?

    No, because people like Powerhouse. It's not the world's greatest map but it's a fun map to play, and a lot of people like it. 3CP isn't the problem, something else is. That something else is balance. 3CP, despite being only 2 points less than 5CP has a MUCH different design philosophy. In 5CP, you lose a point, that's a spawn back and not much else. Meanwhile in 3CP, you lose a point, you're defending your last point. As a result turtling is a lot LOT more common in 3CP. Nobody wants to lose, and as a result you end up with stalemates where the only moving point is Middle.

    So how do you avoid this? Do you make Last easier to attack? Maybe, but then once you lose Middle, you'll just get rolled over for an easy victory by the capping team. What do you do?

    Powerhouse has what I believe the best solution to this. Last is hard to take, no questions asked. It's the final point. Valve figured a good team should have to fight hard to take the point, and taste the sweet nectar of winning virtual videogames.

    But, Powerhouse has some other interesting choices, an easy to attack Mid, only 2 entrances into the team's base with no flank options, a very constricted map design to focus the teams on a constant push, and window blinds.

    But, dump all of that out the window. Can 3CP be improved better than Powerhouse? Perhaps. You could make Last a bit easier to Attack, you could add flanks, balance the difficulty of Last by making Mid a bit harder to cap. And some other things.

    What do you guys think could be done to make 3CP a more wholesome experience?
     
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  2. Corvatile

    aa Corvatile eyes open at all times

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    Two extra control points.
     
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  3. Muddy

    Server Staff Muddy Muddy

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    I guess Powerhouse is popular for the same reason Hightower is popular - because it's really prone to stalemates. Some people prefer DMing over completing objectives.

    I'm not really sure how you could 'fix' it either, since adding forward spawns would just make mid harder for the defending team to recapture while not making last any easier for the attacking team to assault, and making last harder to defend would make defending frustrating.

    If you're designing your map around DMing then fair enough, make a 3cp map. If you want players to complete the objectives, either turn it into 5cp or remove the lasts and make it koth/arena.
     
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  4. Corvatile

    aa Corvatile eyes open at all times

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    You mean have one point each? That format has problems too. Look at Hydro. You're forced to camp on last at all times and you can't push back after a wave of attackers because there's only one choke between the two sides. It's stalematey as hell.

    Powerhouse - and most of the 3CP maps which have tried to emulate it - often ends in stalemates or steamrolls. The problem stems from the fact that once mid is captured, the defending team immediately camp last because they can lose instantly if an enemy gets to it once mid is taken. Without the grace period of a second point like you'd have in 5cp, you can't really afford to push out and retake mid. It ends up just being a fight over the connector between last and mid rather than in the control points themselves; go play Powerhouse and you'll find most of the combat is just people fighting in those awkward lobby areas and the two chokepoints into them.

    Plus, when mid is captured and the entire defending team is camping last, a failed push just means that mid swaps hands over and over without either team going for the winning cap. It's kind of like koth but without the timer to make it end.

    My points is, 3CP is an awkward halfway point between koth and 5cp and it doesn't really work. If you want to make a symmetrical push map then just make it 5cp and it will almost certainly be better.
     
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  5. Lain

    aa Lain will finish a map one day

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    The main problem with 3cp is that is Un-solves the problem that 5cp fixes. 5cp probably wasn't picked because 5 is a cool number, they most likely started with 3 and saw that having the battle be able to quickly shift between the intermediary points (Those being 4 and 2 respectively) made it so that things flowed a LOT better than having a middle point + forwards. Since, without a second point to move the line of defense up even further, having a forward spawn for mid on 3cp in a position akin to capturing second on 5cp would make is almost impossible to push out of for the defending team. Plus, being so far away from the last point when capturing mid encourages engineers to set up defenses on the last point and not move (Boring gameplay for the engineer in question and the team trying to overcome these defenses). This is why a second point between the first and third is needed, it allows teams to move safely push out of last without fear of backcap and it moves the line of defense for the attacking team back as to make it 1. easier for the defending team to push into middle and retake and 2. harder for the attacking to instantly push back into the last point.

    Basically, don't make 3cp if you ever want a map that won't stalemate extreme frequently.

    If you want my opinion on how to improve the mode however, lay it out like koth but with a final point and give the middle point a 5 minute timer or something. Could be interesting.
     
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  6. Zed

    aa Zed Certified Most Crunk™

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    Didn't 3CP originate in maps intended for small amounts of players?
     
  7. Lain

    aa Lain will finish a map one day

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    It originates for the 4's competitive mode. In a 4v4 environment the problems that 5cp fixes over 3cp aren't as prevalent.
     
  8. Nicky

    aa Nicky Lets try something new!

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    I always found the stalemate gameplay to be rather fun, as it leads to hilarious scenarios, like on Hightower, there are always troll-diers and people goofing around, but trying new things. That's just what I've seen, and that being fun is just my opinion though.
     
  9. Benroads

    Benroads L1: Registered

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    Not sure it this is fully correct, a few years ago 3CP maps were discussed as a potential way to speed up games in 6v6 but most people figured out quickly that it would almost always lead to permanent last holds. Whitefrost was pugged a few times during new map weekends but never got actual "competitive" play until it was played in the first season of UGC 4v4 (Awful format to be completely honest). The discussion about it on teamfortress.tv though is pretty interesting and could potentially help people address some of the flaws of the gamemode.

    You can find the thread here: http://www.teamfortress.tv/744/faster-maps-3-cp

    Honestly though I do not see 3CP ever really being a "good" gamemode as it pretty much exists as the worst parts of KOTH and 5CP at the same time. The only appeal I see most people finding in it is the "TDM" style of play where the objectives are basically forgotten and people just run around and shoot eachother, this could be a good or bad thing depending on how you personally feel about it. If this is the main appeal of the gamemode I think it would be better to just have a mode focused on that but it would probably not be very well received.
     
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  10. Pocket

    aa Pocket func_croc

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    What's funny is that we have plenty of experience testing out 3CP maps over the years. And not once do I remember one of them actually being good. Maybe we should have warned Valve at some point not to bother with it.