Water in comp maps ?

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by NoirSuede, Jul 14, 2015.

  1. NoirSuede

    NoirSuede L2: Junior Member

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    Is water an inherently bad thing for comp maps, or can they be worked into a nice element of a comp map ?
     
  2. DonutVikingChap

    DonutVikingChap L5: Dapper Member

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    This is something I've actually been thinking about as well, especially since CS:GO doesn't have any maps with swimmable water at all anymore.

    In my opinion, water serves a good purpose in TF2 since fighting underwater is actually possible with TF2's style of combat, but since it's inherently more awkward to fight in than on land, it can make for some interesting flank routes (like on cp_well or cp_freight for example) that aren't used very often due to that fact.

    It also extinguishes fire, jarate and mad milk which can be very helpful if a pool of water is placed tactically in a highly contested area, especially if you want to reduce the effectiveness of pyros in that area.

    But of course, competitive players are very picky when it comes to map elements that change their playstyle, so I'm not sure if the competitive community would agree with me on this topic.
     
  3. Egan

    aa Egan

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    From what I've heard also there is a potential problem with small pools of water where a soldier can get a lot more height when rocket jumping, I think this video covers it:



    Was warned a lot about the water I had in arena_discovery's center area, but left it in for aesthetics.
     
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    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 29, 2015
  4. DonutVikingChap

    DonutVikingChap L5: Dapper Member

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    That doesn't seem like much of a problem though? More like a cool trick imo
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 29, 2015
  5. Muddy

    Server Staff Muddy Muddy

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    Competitive or not, large pools of water are absolutely utterly unfun to play in in TF2.

    EDIT: Unfun to play around too, because mini-sentries are practically invisible when placed underwater.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2015
  6. ScorpioUprising

    aa ScorpioUprising

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    Its a cool trick, right up until a roamer dunks on your medic from across the map for the tenth time and you can't do anything about it :b

    I don't think water is really good or bad in a comp player's perspective, but ultimately maps that feature it tend to eventually remove it. Process originally had water around the second point, low on the ground like a leak from a dam that used to be behind the spire. I took it out because of the super jump bug, but also because it negated falling damage, which meant huge rocket jumps (even when non-boosted by the water) were essentially free as long as you landed in the water.

    Gullywash had water around the final point, in the lower area that leads behind the point itself. I'm not sure why it was taken out but I'm guessing the transition between fighting on the ground and then swimming was too extreme. That, and probably it was too hard to see people underwater as well.
     
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  7. worMatty

    aa worMatty Repacking Evangelist

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    That rocket jumping thing is pretty fucking cool.
     
  8. DonutVikingChap

    DonutVikingChap L5: Dapper Member

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    You could always put a roof above the water!
     
  9. UKCS-Alias

    aa UKCS-Alias Mann vs Machine... or... Mapper vs Meta?

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    Water has more negative sides than positive sides in balance.
    Classes affected by water in a negative balance way are:
    Pyro (afterburn)
    Spy (water breaks cloaking and a decent player will track you down by it)
    The soldier rocket jump trick (yes, its negative for balance by making him even stronger making alternatives less interesting)
    Heavy (try to spin the minigun and swim - you become a bigger turtle)
    Engineer (mini sentries are hated by other classes)
    Engineer (easy to camp water exits)
    Sniper will avoid it

    So water by its nature has to provide balance features on its own. And powerhouse might be an interesting one for that as it features some good side effects:
    - The water prevents the need for a deathpit
    - Since the center part is ambush friendly the pyro becomes less effective by that
    - Its not deep water, it only has about 1 level of figting making it just a flat battleground. except it has the top layer instantly above it as another feature

    In comp however water isnt that interesting for fights as some classes are realy nerfed by it. And there they rather see the skill with the class people prefer to player, rather than being forced by the map.

    However, if water is placed well im sure that comp will accept it as feature. Just dont overuse it and if it can contain battles try to keep it to a single level fight. However, be sure that players can avoid that area entirely. You realy dont want a pyro to be weaker in a comp situation as that is enough reason to turn down a map.
     
  10. Kwzby

    Kwzby L1: Registered

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    Most of the time Water is just used as an alternate route to a Point/Objective. I wouldn't say its a bad thing to add water just don't make it the only route, and don't add to much.
     
  11. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

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    I usually hate water in every map. I say that as a player.

    I find navigating and fighting in water a chore, and spotting things like stickies in shallow water is often difficult because of the water texture/effect.

    There are some exceptions, but they're very rare.
     
  12. fauks

    fauks L2: Junior Member

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    Powerhouse has reminded me how much I dislike water.
     
  13. MegapiemanPHD

    aa MegapiemanPHD Doctorate in Deliciousness

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    I, personal, like when maps use swimable water. It helps keep things varied. I also agree that water should be used sparingly and pretty much always have a func_nobuild in it.
     
  14. Bucake

    Bucake L1: Registered

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    in my opinion it's a total no-no in any comp map, except for aesthetic purposes / outside of playable terrains.

    for a "pub map" i think water is fine. it looks good, can increase the overall atmosphere by a good amount, can increase variety in the map and can help separate parts of maps.
    it can definitely add a lot of extra character to a map. if used well, it's great.

    but in comp.. just no.
     
  15. UKCS-Alias

    aa UKCS-Alias Mann vs Machine... or... Mapper vs Meta?

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    Navigating in water is indeed something most players dislike. Players only like it when there is no need to navigate and its very obvious. Most of the time being an exception to a deathpit (as rather than being an instant kill, it will just be anoying, but its at least not an instant death)

    And this doesnt exclude swimmable water, but it restricts it very much in its usability.

    However, in cp_well the water has the purpose of being an additional path entirely and doesnt serve as a hazard. And thats the type of water i dislike. Water should have the same effect as a deathpit hazard except giving you a 2nd chance to leave which still can be done fast but brings some risk to it (the powerhouse water brings risk by forcing you to the CP which is a major point of focus - yet it also serves as a safezone to stop afterburn, jarate etc).
     
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  16. EArkham

    aa EArkham Necromancer

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    That's actually very much the type of water I like. Optional path, but not necessary.

    It's even better in cp_freight, where you don't even need to cross a bridge if you don't want to.