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Vitalism

Discussion in 'Map Factory' started by ScorpioUprising, Jan 17, 2010.

  1. ScorpioUprising

    aa ScorpioUprising

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    Hello! Here is my entry for the ctf contest. I'm going to try to get some playtest feedback soon, so keep a lookout for some playtest sessions.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2010
  2. Boonsaw

    Boonsaw L1: Registered

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    vi⋅tal⋅ism  [vahyt-l-iz-uhm] Show IPA
    1. the doctrine that phenomena are only partly controlled by mechanical forces, and are in some measure self-determining. Compare dynamism (def. 1), mechanism (def. 8).
    2. Biology. a doctrine that ascribes the functions of a living organism to a vital principle distinct from chemical and physical forces.

    Orly?
     
  3. ScorpioUprising

    aa ScorpioUprising

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    I would add my own definition to that: A philosphical doctrine which defines the fundamental nature of reality as being essentialy vital (so, any existent form is a form of life).

    A farmscape seems like a good model for that definition.
     
  4. Ravidge

    aa Ravidge Grand Vizier

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    I'll be keeping an eye on this, looks fun.
     
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  5. ScorpioUprising

    aa ScorpioUprising

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    Bump for gameday feedback!

    Overall it seemed to play pretty well. Some people were pretty confused about the cap in the middle, so I'll add some more signs to (hopefully) leady them in the right direction. It seemed really hard to defend the intel, with the ledges above. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I'll be looking into ways to give defenders a bit of an edge (the intell on a cart should give a little bit of cover, adding a rather long path up to the top for defenders, as well as seperating out the two sides of the ledge a bit more). Let me know what you think!

    Also, on the note of the map not being fully symmetric:

    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3492731/ctf_vitalism_a1_symmetrical.jpg
    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3492731/ctf_vitalism_a1_stillsymmetrical.jpg

    The rocks located in both pictures (A and B) are rotated 180 degrees, to ensure symmetricality. Yes, on any given side, the red or blue team will have a different rock in front of their base. But, on the right side of the map and the left side of the map (per team) both teams have the SAME rock facing their own entrance. If rock A provides an advantage, then a team could choose to utilize that side, and the opposing team could do likewise. ]

    I SAY UNTO YOU GOOD DAY SIR!
     
  6. Boonsaw

    Boonsaw L1: Registered

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    Was great fun to play, don't move the capture zone as someone suggested. As for the symmetry thing, I hadn't realized that the left and the right part of the map was the same. That's what you get for picking the same route I guess :p
     
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  7. ScorpioUprising

    aa ScorpioUprising

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    Finished up A2. Tried to make the intel a little less hectic to defend, without making it a sentry fest. Moved the spawns to the two rooms to the side, adding a wall to give them a bit of defense before entering the main base. Replaced the original spawn with a pathway up to the overlook over the intel. This gives defenders a way to counterattack people firing down at them. Removed some metal from the middle, and neatened up the health ammo by the huts.
     
  8. Swiftmind

    Swiftmind L2: Junior Member

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    Alright, lets see. I did enjoy this map. At first I was confused and when I learned about the cap point being in the middle I thought well that is just dumb. But after playing it for a while I realized it is an interesting twist. You said in game that it gives the other team a chance to intercept. I agree. But I think the effect is more broad. It forces the teams out of their base. I played other ctfs and they are boring, it is why I hate playing ctf. The teams always end up staying in the base with fighting in the middle of the map that goes back and forth for the entire game. Generally a well organized assault will lead to capping the intel but on public servers this is hard to do.

    This still applies to your map but there is now a new defence strategy, the team who controls the middle cap point will win. So now the teams will exit their base to fight for control of the middle while also trying to capture each other's intel. This stretches out the defenses a bit and to me makes it more interesting.

    But one draw back, a team who has a few really good fighters will dominate this map. My team got around 15 captures I think while the other got only four or so. Quite a gap. Not sure how layout wise this can be fixed. Im not the best layout person. But the bases seem lacking to me. The layout is very simple but I wonder if it is too simple. I am not sure if adding some hallways or props will help or hurt.

    One thing I noticed about the spawn rooms, they can be smaller. I do not mean smaller in terms of going from one door straight across to the other door, but the other way. Going from the bare wall facing intel room to the other bare wall.

    You should put some health/ammo in the room above the cap points. I am thinking small but no bigger then medium. Also I think the health/ammo within the base should be mediums not smalls.

    I know this map is small but put some open areaportals on all doorways of the base leading to the outside. This will help optimize what is being rendered. Within the base I could see most of outside and some of the other team's base.

    One addition, I would put a big window within the spawn room that overlooks the intelligence. This will show the players right away here the intel is.

    Also I wonder if adding a goal string or message stating the cap point is in the middle is a good idea. Most players did not realize the cap point was in the middle until others said it in voice chat.


    I saw in your last post you made a path from the spawn room to the overlook of the intel room, good addition!
     
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  9. ScorpioUprising

    aa ScorpioUprising

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    Thanks for the feedback guys. I went ahead and burned through a3 and a4 by puggin the map a bit. Its a ton of fun in 6v6 (seems that way, at least).

    I've made some changes for A5. First, theres an additional building in the middle area, at the edge of where the medium health pack used to be. You can get up their by rjing, or by leaping from rock to rock as a scout. I've also extended the platforms for snipers, as well as making the tilted roof near them acessible.

    Next, I adjusted health packs around the map. The medium health and (now) medium ammo at mid are now located in the new structure (you have to duck inside to grab health). I've added two small ammos to the middle cap area, as well as a medium near each teams base (at the bottom of the ledge) and another small near the end of the cargo containers. Not sure if this is too much ammo, I'm really worried about sentry farms. Hopefully the sight lines will be enough to ensure that any sentry gun can be taken out relatively quickly. I also changed the position of the small health and ammo below the spawn doors, putting them into the intel room. This should help alleviate some of the spam that will be coming from above, and give any attacker nabbing a flag a minor ammo pick up.

    Next, I put the defensive ramps to the pipe bridge inside the intel room. This should make the intel room itself a more likely position for the defenders, and ensures that they have to walk by the intel at least once to get to the top (so they know where it is, and they can stop anyone they happen to see). I've also lowered the upper part of the middle building by a bit, making it much more rocket jump friendly and a more likely place for combat.

    Finally, I went through the map and put a variety of interesting scout perches. The rocks in middle are now double jump accessible, let you get to the roof of the new building, and you can even circumvent the entire main combat arenas if your careful with your jumps. Likewise, the intel rooms have computer bays, allowing you to leap to the top of a lamp and then to the pipes or the railing. It takes a lot of skill to pull that off, so I'm hoping it won't be too abusable.
     
  10. lana

    aa lana Currently On: ?????

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    We pretty much ruined that test, but there's a few things to be learned from it. The layout is good and flows very well, but the spawns need to have multiple exits, which could be done simply by connecting the two areas. The intel cap zones need some nobuild in them, and you probably might end up removing all the metal in that area. Placing a sentry in there was pretty overkill. Fun map so far.
     
  11. ScorpioUprising

    aa ScorpioUprising

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    Finished the first detailed beta of vitalism. The visuals are pretty much at the level of where I want them, though a couple of areas need some work: the skybox is a little akward, and it doesn't quite work in a couple places (see blues chimmney tower things). The brick builidings for the two bases are a little boring and could use a little more variety. Spawns are very spartan, though I'm planning to add a vista in the new hallway between the spawn rooms (rocket in a snowglobe sort of thing). Also, needs a bit more optimization, though it tends to run pretty well right now.

    Anyway, gonna try and get some playtests of this going. Please post feedback if you would!
     
  12. Geal

    Geal L4: Comfortable Member

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    Looks good so far, looking forward to playing it. I really like the rockets behind the big red barn.

    Only issue I can see from screenshots is in the third screenshot to the right. The change from reflective tile to solid stone is fairly abrupt, and doesn't look too realistic. Maybe include something to hide the change, or make it less noticeable?
     
  13. ScorpioUprising

    aa ScorpioUprising

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    Been working on some other maps, but I managed to hammer out a B2 of vitalism. Primarily B2 is fixing some framerate issues by altering the exits from the bases and adding drawdistances to many of the props (some might flicker a bit, looking to adjust whichever ones are broken). Gonna try and get some more playtests going on.
     
  14. Ravidge

    aa Ravidge Grand Vizier

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    b2 on gameday today. It was my first time playing it so I was new to the whole thing, though is was simple enough and easy to understand within a few minutes.

    There was some interesting tactics going on, where one team camped their own intel (in true ctf spirit) and the other team held down the capture zones.
    No matter how much people tried, it was hard to clear out and break through either defence and score. But in the longer run, the team that could actually pick up and escape with the intel (the base turtles) seemed to have a better chance of capturing than the others.

    Before people got into their camp routines the game was quite actionfilled, and both flags were in play quite a lot of the time. Both with a common zone to fight and score in. I liked that, it got hectic at times and was very fun.

    There was some comments on voice about fade distances being slightly off, didnt notice it myself tho.
    In the end all I can say is that I had a good time, but with such short playtime on the map I don't really want to make any concrete suggestions.
     
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  15. ScorpioUprising

    aa ScorpioUprising

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    Thanks for the feedback. I checked out the demo of that playthrough, and I'm pretty glad I wasn't there. I would probably have been yelling pretty loud.

    I think I agree with shmits's criticism of most of the complaint: blue team had no medic for 90% of the match, and when they did have a medic it was often wandering off into the middle of the map and getting plowed by any scout or pyro it could find (rather than waiting for a combat worthy class to heal). So, for people to be complaining that its too hard to retake the middle without med support... I dunno, doesn't seem like much of a criticism to me. Shmitz and the heavy held middle so well because they worked together and because no other medic ever cam around to offer any support or an organized front.

    I do think its a good idea to move some of the ammo around, but often the engy on the middle didn't have to get any metal from the 100 at all! Enemies charging the middle and suiciding themselves on the gun and the heavy offered him all the opportunity for metal that he needed. As for whether the middle is too hard to take (STILL) I feel like i've offered plenty of long sightlines for spamming the point, a hole in the ceiling that gives demos great access for sticky or pipe spamming, and an open enough area that a coordinated team effort could retake middle.

    I think a lot of cries about the lack of teamplay might have to do with the fact that the map is scaled more for 6v6 play, and that in a 12v12 setting people tend to get a bit disorganized. But, again, I would point out that the team that held and defended middle WAS coordinating at least at the level of heavy and medic, where the other team was not.

    As for the intel rooms themselves: definitely too much ammo and health. I'm thinking about removing health and ammo from there entirely, leaving the bases pretty much empty of any resupply, except for the spawns. That should force engies to be a bit more nomadic, and maybe push them to another class to help attack middle, rather than turtling in their base.

    Definitely going to address the skybox and the visuals behind the bases. I think I'll extend the cordone a bit and put some more visual detail work on the bases themselves, and then work on intergrating the skybox again. Also: fixing fade distances.
     
  16. Tinker

    aa Tinker

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    Running through the map, these are the things that stuck out:

    - Medkit and ammo positions are often on opposite sides of a room. While this might look nice aesthetically, gameplay-wise it's a bad idea. People like to have to remember as few things as possible, and I suggest grouping the ammo and health together together if they're really close anyway. For example, in the farm buildings at opposite ends of the map, move the medium health/ammo to the back and group them.

    - Visual distinction. Your map is really pretty and has a refreshing theme, but its visuals are dangerous because both sides of both teams' bases are the mirrored. Not sure if this will come up as a problem in gameplay, but as it stands the visuals of both sides are exactly the same as well, making for sometimes confusing runs through the own base, especially when you don't know the map that well. I'd suggest giving both sides of each base some visually distinct environment, even if you keep the game area the same.

    - The name isn't particularly catchy :p

    I'd have to play this with more people to see if the gameplay ideas work, but so far, it looks damn good. Keep it up!
     
  17. Bereth

    Bereth L3: Member

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    I've played this map in a highlander match and I must say that I like it overall. However I would like you to add a bit of detail to the spawns and try to make the ugly hall connecting the two sides smaller in length yet higher and wider. Overall the map tends to have stalemates because the upper area of the middle is so difficult to push into. But I must say I would love to play more of this map.
     
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  18. ScorpioUprising

    aa ScorpioUprising

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    Hey, yah thanks for the feedback. Lots of people seem to like highlander on this map. WARMS ME BONES! The spawns were definitely a throw away detail job, going to try and improve it in a newer version that I'll get to at some point.
     
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