CP trainstation_a1

Discussion in 'Map Factory' started by stegarootbeer, Feb 6, 2012.

  1. stegarootbeer

    stegarootbeer L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    78
    Positive Ratings:
    97
    trainstation

    This map takes place in a train yard or something like that. The final cap has a railroad running though it. I'm not good at writing descriptions. Yeah.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2012
  2. Jeremy

    Jeremy L11: Posh Member

    Messages:
    829
    Positive Ratings:
    251
    The third screenshot is quite dark, and what's the capture zone in the second screenshot supposed to be, exactly?
     
  3. Doctor Paprika

    Doctor Paprika L4: Comfortable Member

    Messages:
    150
    Positive Ratings:
    50
    It's the TF2 logo, obviously.
     
  4. Faux Rhinoceros

    aa Faux Rhinoceros Also known as Dr. Element

    Messages:
    1,474
    Positive Ratings:
    1,365
    This looks really good. Is it your first map? :D
     
  5. Terwonick

    Terwonick L6: Sharp Member

    Messages:
    278
    Positive Ratings:
    88
  6. Doctor Paprika

    Doctor Paprika L4: Comfortable Member

    Messages:
    150
    Positive Ratings:
    50
    To be completely honest, I hate playing this map. I know you were in-game the last time I played, so you heard a bunch of people say it, but I'll say it again: SNIPERS! Oh God, the snipers.

    The sightlines in this map are beyond unbalanced. This is like a sniping practice map. I know a lot of people were actually having fun that way, so if you're cool with it being a gimmicky lolmap that people can just sort of goof around it, then I suppose you don't have to worry too much.

    Otherwise, I think the layout needs to be completely re-thought. It's not just a matter of breaking up the sightlines with random cover, although that would definitely help. The whole thing is built around these long corridors and train track areas that beg for some doglegs and corners and ramps and whatnot. This would also help with the optimization in the long run.

    I know this has also been pointed out repeatedly, but Blu spawn is insanely campable; it needs exits that are further apart and aren't easily sniped directly into. Most of your ramps are really steep, too, which looks jarring and weird (again, I know this has been pointed out repeatedly).

    I also don't understand why you used a Gravel Pit style HUD when it's a linear A/D map.
     
  7. Tarry H Sruman

    Tarry H Sruman Large Orphanage Proprietor

    Messages:
    871
    Positive Ratings:
    820
    LONG FEEDBACK INCOMING

    I'm linking this because its big and horribly ugly.

    My apologies for the garbage sketch, hopefully you can decipher it.

    The biggest geometry changes are in red. What I recommended is building a trench (here is an excellent example of what I mean) for the train to run through, and the point being positioned on a bridge across that trench. The trench could be accessed by attackers via opening up the warehouse that the train currently comes out of, and jumping down into it. The trench route would offer the attackers a way around the major choke in the direct route and offer protection from sentries, but would be substantially longer and have the danger of trains running through. I would recommend putting railings on the point, to avoid pyros spamming airblasts and knocking people into the trench.

    The area marked in green (which would be the end of that structure if you made the red geometry changes) could be a second-story or otherwise raised platform for engineers to build on. Having the access point be in the alcove area (directly under the green text) would let defensive engies build on the platform while still giving the attackers a way to flank after they push up to the choke. Anything built there would be able to shoot "forward" (onto the point) but not "backwards" (down at the road towards the previous point, use a fence or something to block that sightline) and would thus be difficult to protect from attackers.

    Adding a high ground easily accessible to the attackers would leave the defenders with a disadvantage on the final point. You should add some form of elevated area/building/etc in the area marked with orange to avoid the defense being a big group of people standing around in an open field. You have several levels of height variation on the rest of the map, the final point should be no different. Also, the Red spawn exits would need to be moved/widened/more added to stop Blu from spamming the spawn should they gain control of the green-marked area.

    Well that's my idea. Maybe it's a shitty one, maybe it isn't. Feel free to take it into consideration.
     
  8. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

    Messages:
    5,436
    Positive Ratings:
    3,561
    BLU shouldn't be able to build behind their setup gates. That should be an easy fix; besides, the area immediately outside the setup gates is hardly exposed. RED can only get to it through that 1 doorway, minus rocket jumpers.

    A feels really cumbersome to assault and defend. The area around it should be more open and interesting to traverse, the high ground area around the point could be made smaller/narrower. Maybe consider referencing the combat around the radio bowl in hydro. Put the CP in the tiny room with some catwalks around it with open space underneath.

    On the left flank BLU can pretty much bypass B and get to C. Managed to flank and take out a bunch of defences (though mostly thanks to the fact the engi used his wrangler and didn't notice me flanking him).

    BLU should get a better view of the B hologram image from a distance. The room is pretty small and it's not always obvious where the point is, which also doesn't help with the attacking C before B issue.

    Not really sure what to add about C, maybe a third flank on the ground level to the right of the high ground. But if you change anything, open up that choke or add another exit from the B-C choke transition. RED have to much control over the area infront of the final CP.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2012
  9. Tarry H Sruman

    Tarry H Sruman Large Orphanage Proprietor

    Messages:
    871
    Positive Ratings:
    820
    I'll start off with a few specific areas in the flythrough build you sent me, then I'll get to the map as a whole.

    [​IMG]

    This is bad for both aesthetic and gameplay reasons. Since the gameplay area (namely the Blu spawn exit) is clearly visible from the railing, it appears that the area beyond it is accessible, which it is not. Also, the ledge can be fired down from, particularly by demomen, even though it is not accessible, and the attackers have to cover quite a distance to get to a demoman spamming pipes from there. Stick a wall there and problem solved.

    [​IMG]

    The supports of the point platform look like they should break up the area into a rough C shape, but they do not. Since there is nothing blocking the players from moving easily through the supports (such as some sheet metal, crates, etc.) the entire bottom areas acts as a big, flat, bland space. The usage of doors is obnoxious. The dark room behind the point creates a small "airlock" space that a. Doesn't make any sense structurally, and b. Is confusing to play in, especially when airblast-spamming pyros are involved. Also, a recurring theme in the map is that your structures are not built to consistent dimensions. The map is full of pointless, stupid little gaps like the one between the brick "shack" at the right and the wall next to it. These spaces are difficult to move around in and hurt the visual clarity of the routes. There is a particularly obnoxious example of this behind A, but I didn't take a screenshot of that.

    [​IMG]

    This area was probably my favorite part of the map in the previous versions, but it is going to be a lot less significant with the changes you've made. It worked well as a stronghold for the attackers just outside of the final point area. With the gray wall at the bottom, and the uneven heights of the roofs (fix this soon, or it could be an optimization nightmare) we see the return of the "inconsistent buildings" phenomenon. The defenders may hold out here for a while, but it will probably fall to the attackers quickly; and since the area beyond it is no longer the final point area, it won't have much use beyond that.

    [​IMG]


    This is by far the worst part. Look at every official TF2 map and every good custom map, and you will never see a point surrounded by that much flat ground. That point will absolutely not be fun to play on and will become an enormous, spammy pit of sadness, seeing as Red spawns on a high ground from which Blu has no cover. The trainsition (see what I did there?) from the last screenshot to this area is almost as bad. The little square area outside of what used to be Blu's rally point doesn't look like a good place for the attackers to mount attacks. Any pushes, either from the ramp or the stupidly long and dark tunnel, would inevitably end up being spammed into submission as soon as they reached the aforementioned pit of sadness. That much flat ground, regardless of where it is, is never fun to play on.

    Overall, I think the biggest problems with the map are that it lacks an intuitive layout and has extremely sloppy geometry. Nothing in the map makes structural sense (oddly placed bridges and lots of intersecting shacks and buildings) so it is very difficult to remember areas accurately or forsee what is around the next corner before you turn it. It doesn't feel natural; it feels like a lot of random buildings thrown together in arbitrary order. Take a break, look at Dustbowl, Gravelpit, any community A/D map, or even 5CP last points and compare what they are doing to what you are doing. Then come up with a new layout, or figure out a way to modify this layout, to include your findings. I would recommend that you start a new vmf and remake the map, even areas you only want to tweak, keeping in mind that buildings should be of consistent sizes and should not leave little gaps between then. When you redo the geometry from scratch you might realize flaws in your original ideas, and feel free to throw them out because they sure as hell aren't working.

    Good luck.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  10. Wolfen

    Wolfen L1: Registered

    Messages:
    27
    Positive Ratings:
    18
    I'll try this out in a few builds but right now I think the best thing you could do is google " Railyard" or "Train Station."

    One thing about level designers is that we are to take cues from real life and create buildings and architecture for players to move through.

    If you really want a train station I suggest looking at Grand Central Station in NYC or the one in Chicago.

    If you want a rail yard I also suggest googling NYC Rail Yards or Chicago for tight close corners yards.. I also suggest looking at San Francisco and the old Sante Fe rail yards. Their a bit more wide open and flat but they also have a neat ascetic and lend themselves to rows of train cars being your maze with a few structure.

    Last of all I'd do a little research. Leaning about how consists are made and why trains seem like a mess but are extremely organized in consists structure.

    All this research will help you better understand the layout of a real rail yard/ station. It will also help you design a bit better as, hopefully, your mind will take this new information and start building plans and layouts around what it now knows.

    I wish you the best of luck. :)