To ALL mappers

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by flux, Aug 12, 2009.

  1. flux

    flux L1: Registered

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    Hey guys been awhile since I've been on here and i'm glad i'm back on!:)

    But let me cut to the chase here.

    You guys work so hard on your maps and continue to have pride in it, I'm glad that you guys do. That's the beauty in map making! But we have been presented with a problem I am starting to be disgusted with it.

    Gotfrag:
    the holy grail of flamming and horrible representation of the competitive community.

    I just been looking at the forums just a few minutes ago and seen nineaxis and youme (hopefully my spelling is correct on your names) getting ripped on about there map and the respawn time and all that nasty junk that they give to you.

    I left a post defending you guys. how they should respect the fact you guys present new material to them.

    I know that there's been a post about competitive players here and I ignored it after I posted a 3rd or 4th time there,to defend competitive players, but it seems like I'm swaying away from those senses, the competitive scene is slowly dying because of the pool of lower skill and newer teams. One major company called Complexity had dropped there support for tf2 since the skill level is not there and the roster changes they have had(full story on http://www.complexitygaming.com/index.php?c=news&id=1140 ), I blame most people in the competitive community for pushing away new players that could potentially can be good players...I'm sad that depression is upon competitive players.
    But there is no depression upon map makers!

    Mappers continue what you guys do best and do not worry so much on the competitive scene, you map for yourself and the entertainment of others, please do not let them let you down if your map is presented in competitive play. WE ARE TF2MAPS.NET!!!!!
     
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  2. Eternal

    Eternal L69: Deviant Member

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    As a former high level competitive player (quake 3 arena my clan used to regularly play again clan kapitol, fatal1ty's clan) and as a new custom map maker (approaching 70hours working on just the first section of what will be a 3section payload map and my first map EVER) I can understand issues on both sides. Competitive play is a carefully structured beast that requires extremely careful balancing and typically relies on a VERY small handful of maps that tend to have the best opportunities for a lot of back and forth play, however they also in my experience rely on having a couple of key locations for a team to hold that is difficult(however not TOO difficult) to be dislodged from. Competitive players will actively look for any problems that may arise and will make a big issue out of them as sometimes even the littlest thing can cause a team to lose a game (a slight fading of a line on a tennis court may seem a minor issue but it may cause a ball to be called out that wasn't or vice versa)

    However this does not excuse any sort of overly angry, disrespectful, unsportsmanlike, and unprofessional behavior on the part of the competitive side. These are carefully constructed fanmade projects and if there is an issue with the maps (as there are with Hoodoo and Egypt for example) they should be brought to the attention of the creators of the maps in as detailed, concise, and considerately as possible that way the person can re-evaluate the potential issue and see if it needs to be rectified and how best to do it. If the person is approached in a brash way and insulting the work the map maker has put dozens and dozens of hours of their life into creating then the artist is less likely to receive and listen to the issue and more likely to simply defend their work and ignore it.

    Perhaps if competitive players were more willing to work TOGETHER with map makers rather than hating on them for the blows dealt to their Egos because of issues with the map. We could build high quality competitive levels that could be used to help bring TF2 to the forefront of the competitive scene.
     
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  3. Open Blade

    Open Blade L7: Fancy Member

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    Maybe the competitive players should just start playing on a few of the orange maps that have mirrored sides, that way everything is totally balanced and they can't bitch. They act as if they are the only people we have in mind when we build these maps. They are in fact, IMO anyway, of no concern when I build maps. I try to build something balanced for both sides regardless because it's what's fair, but I could give a rats ass about some small group of guys who think they are gods gift to the gaming world because they are good at a game. Who gives a flying PHUCK. If they wan't to keep bitching, then they can just build their own frickin maps. Just tell them not to download any more custom maps and to build their own.
     
  4. Shmitz

    aa Shmitz Old Hat

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    Having followed the unfolding drama on gotfrag, it's become evident to me that the problem isn't with the competitive community being rude and unhelpful to mappers, but rather it's a two part problem.

    1) A very small number of individuals (that I could probably count on one hand) are being incredibly stupid with their criticisms. Sometimes they have valid issues and sometimes they don't, but they never pose them in a way that is helpful or compelling to the mapper. Rather, they simply try to tell the mapper what to do without explaining why. The mapper should obviously just comply because of how awesome and amazing those individuals are. :rolleyes: I would like to reiterate the very small number of people actually doing this though. It is not the competitive community. It is just a few self-absorbed asses.

    2) Most everyone else is trying to be helpful and supportive, but aren't making very many concrete suggestions as to what to do, or even saying too much about what they like about the map. This isn't a fault in the community, but it fails to counteract the negative influence of the overly vocal individuals in point 1.

    If we're going to bridge this divide, we really need more people like you and Fox who actively spread positive vibes. You guys really do help those of us on the production end feel that the time spent on these maps is worth our while.
     
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  5. Trotim

    aa Trotim

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    Though I gotta admit I don't think our kind would ever stop mapping just because some players who know nothing about it complained. Not trying to be offensive here, just saying I'd probably even map if nobody ever played my maps.
     
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  6. Open Blade

    Open Blade L7: Fancy Member

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    ..........further more, just because somebody is a "competitive" tf2 player doesn't mean they know what truly makes a well balanced map. Some of them indeed might have some great suggestions, but it's probably a good bet that several of them do not have great suggestions.

    And what I don't understand is this. When we make our maps, we try to keep them as well balanced as we can, for Red/Blu and all the classes. I would think that even players who are not "competitive" want well balanced maps. So what exactly is a competitive player looking for that the average player isn't? I think they both want the same thing right? A well balanced map that works correctly, looks good, plays good and one that is optimized well so frames are low.

    But with that in mind, it just goes back to the one thing that will never change. There is never ever ever going to be a map that 100% of the players will like. You will always have a handful that want's something changed, while another handful will disagree with them and think it doesn't need to be changed. That's mapping.
     
  7. BagOfChips

    BagOfChips L5: Dapper Member

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    Are you sure you're talking about comp players?
     
  8. Eternal

    Eternal L69: Deviant Member

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    Not many people understand the process that goes into making a map or any sort of game resource for that matter, however map making is probably the least understood. Some people assume its easily slapped together like lego bricks, most however never even consider how they are created or realize that things like lighting/texturing/optimizations/AI Pathing/ect ect are also responsibilities of the map maker, not just the geometry.

    What is "balanced" and what is important to a competitive level experience on a map is minute and varied as well as often times difficult to nail down. A map that is "balanced" isn't just because its mirrored on both sides (though that DOES help in CP maps) probably the most important thing in balancing a map is the angles of attack, how many ways can an opponent attack me, and how many ways can I respond to the attack quickly and effectively. The hard part and the more amorphous issue of balance is finding that sweet spot where there is enough ways without being too many, but keeping it defensible without having too few ways to act.

    If a map maker has done all the more obvious things and handled plenty of beta tests and such to make sure the map feels balanced enough to be released then it will go through HUNDREDS of hours of playtime before it is deemed balanced or not by the more hardcore.

    You can never truly have a perfect idea, no map will ever be perfectly balanced for the enjoyment of all, just as Valve is always finding bugs in TF2 and updating it.

    And while it may only be a handful of people being RUDE about their criticism of the maps, its still upsetting. But there will always be critics.