OLD_Thunderbolt

CP OLD_Thunderbolt a2

Oct 15, 2018
249
132
Huwareyou updated Thunderbolt with a new update entry:

a1a update

a1a update:

- Removed door in the house between blu spawn and A point.
- Fixed clipping on the conveyer belt.
- Minor geometry adjustments around A.
- Changed ammo availability around B.
- Better clipping on the rocks near C to avoided players getting stuck.
- Fixed broken logic at the beginning of the match that meant blu’s respawn time was set twice instead of both teams.
- Adjusted respawn wave times.
- Adjusted capture point timings
-B capture time reduced to 10 from 13.

Read the rest of this update entry...
 
Oct 15, 2018
249
132
Huwareyou updated Thunderbolt with a new update entry:

a2 update

a2 update:
- Reworked the left route from blu’s spawn to A.
- Removed the Vent route that connects the routes into B as it was more beneficial to defenders than attackers.
- Expanded the cliffs area and added another route for blu.
- Increased time awarded after capturing A from 2 minutes 30 to 4 minutes.
- Increased maximum timer length from 6 minutes to 10 minutes.
- Setup timer length increased from 65 seconds to 70.
- Clipping and geometry adjustments.

Read the rest of this update entry...
 

Tiftid

the Embodiment of Scarlet Devil
aa
Sep 10, 2016
518
391
This is my 400th message!

I decided to analyse this map today.
Since I'm tired, I'll keep it unusually brief (for me, at least), and start with my list of high-priority changes that I reckon should be made, and save the explanations for later - if at all in this post.

For A:
  • Give RED a forward spawn to defend A, or build more space between BLU spawn and A
  • Give RED better sentry spots since currently all their sentry spots can either be outranged or RED can be prevented from retreating from, or even reaching them in the first place
  • Reduce the internal capture time to about 11-15 seconds
For B:
  • Add more space between A and B
  • Give BLU a forward spawn to attack B
  • Rework the lobby area to allow BLU to pass through it with no resistance
For C:
  • Rework the lobby area to allow BLU to pass through it with no resistance

Reasoning for the changes to A:
Cap A lacks a forward hold. In playtests, you'll always observe RED not holding the area outside BLU spawn, and instead holding further back on the point itself.
However, A kind of functions in its current state just by virtue of how long its captime is - sort of like Bruhstbowl 2-A, RED can hold a single area and the captime ensures that BLU won't capture the point just by winning a single teamfight in that area.
But the biggest problem with this archetype of design is the fact that a single BLU medic right-click will often take over the hold area, and it turns out it's very difficult for RED to recapture an area they lose thanks to their long respawn time.
Bruhstbowl 2-A works around this by:
  • making BLU's respawn time long (6 second respawn waves!)
  • in return, making RED's walk time from spawn to the point relatively short
  • making RED's defensive positions crazily strong, but not with much actual dominion over the point, so RED's hold can withstand an uber, but not actually guard the point without each individual member of RED trying to make the climb up to the point.
Honestly, I could be here for hours just writing an essay about the design of Bruhstbowl 2-A, but the fact that this map's A point doesn't imitate any of its subtler features implies to me that it's not actually meant to be that style of point, and you simply misjudged the distances.
So, add more space between BLU spawn and A, or give RED a forward spawn to defend A, and it becomes a normal point with a forward and backward hold, and you lose the need for the ultra-long captime.

Although, I haven't decompiled the map, so for all I know, the captime could be 15 seconds already.

Well, in the end, it's A/D. It's all about area control - once BLU has taken the backward hold, there's something like a 95% chance that RED won't push back into it, so the captime is just a charade to stall for time, unless you use it in some special way by making it easy for BLU to get on the point before taking the backward hold.

Reasoning for the changes to B:
B is currently in a weird spot where it's sort of both too close to A in a way that can create ugly roll rounds, and too far from BLU spawn in a way that lets RED hold the lobby area, forcing BLU to win three teamfights in a row to cap B, which they just clearly can't achieve, as proven in playtests.
Therefore, you should build a little extra "dead space" arena between A and B before the BLU lobby for B, and put a forward spawn for BLU either there or on the A backward hold.
That way, you solve the issue of BLU taking too long to reach the point from their spawn, and you solve the issue of BLU not taking long enough to reach the point from A.
Simple!

Reasoning for the changes to C:
C seems very solid!
There's a good distance between B and C such that an initial forward hold will basically always happen, BLU's forward spawn puts them a fair distance away from the point and both holds seem fun and fair, although RED's rotate time going into the backward hold could maybe stand to go down a little.
What I mean by "rework the lobby area" is that BLU only gets two entrances into the lobby area, and they're not that far apart. So, it's not inconceivable that RED could push into the lobby area and hold it like a second forward hold. Now, RED seems to rarely do that because BLU spawns close enough and the routes going into the forward hold are wide enough to prevent it in most cases, but it's a nice stretch goal for you to prevent even the most improbable of unfun rounds.

Specific areas or routes:
I am of the opinion that the A backward hold could be made much more fun with the addition of a simple wall and doorway here.
1689140476337.png

You tend to find that RED close-range classes congregate on the high ground. Therefore, you can extrapolate that RED will find it more fun if the BLU sniper perch cannot see that high ground. That way, close-range classes are fighting close-range classes, and long-range classes are picking off whatever RED stragglers decided to use the long-range, low ground route - usually other long-range classes, as it turns out.

This particular BLU sniper perch can also snipe RED on their way to the high ground from B, which is not fair or fun.
1689140606925.png

To fix this, you could add another wall+doorway to block the orange arrow, but there's another solution which I prefer quite a bit:
1689140677783.png

This would allow RED to guarantee entry to the high ground without passing that sniper sightline, and it would also give extra meaning to these fences, which previously existed to block a sightline from the B lobby, but were pointless since you would have to walk into the door the sightline saw through anyway.

This solution also lets you upgrade the B lobby:
1689140826813.png

If RED tries holding the old doorway, they're letting BLU get behind them via the new one. If they try holding the new one, they're letting BLU get behind them via the old one.
This forces RED to fall back and hold at the only place which BOTH doorways go into, which happens to be the square I will later mark as the B forward hold. This makes the B lobby impossible for RED to hold - a desirable effect for us.
However, since I've already argued that you should add more space between A and B, this solution couldn't be implemented exactly as I've drawn it. It's just food for thought.

Currently, RED's routing from their first spawn to the B backward hold is not cool, and gives them a massive disadvantage.
1689140978729.png

You get two doors, but they lead to the same room. Furthermore, that room only has one quick door to get to the control point.
The massive rotate time between the two spawn doors compared to the nonexistent rotate time for a demoman standing outside your spawn to watch both doors, as well as the single-door choke, makes RED's life hell as they try to respawn and enter the backward hold.
This is admittedly not a high-priority fix, since if RED has been pushed back this far, it logically follows that they've already lost the backward hold fair and square and should subsequently lose the point. It's just, again, food for thought, and I hope it is indeed nourishing.

The C lobby suffers from kind of a combination of the past two problems.
1689141163854.png

There are two distinct entrances, and they're reasonably far apart for BLU. But for a RED player occupying this lobby area, they're not far apart at all. A true lobby area should really be split into two halves like I described earlier, so it's completely impossible for RED to hold one route without risking a backcap from the other, so they're forced to fall back to the forward hold, where the two routes meet.

C has a minor case of sightline blocking that's maybe not as effective as it could be.
1689141308220.png

Forward and backward hold diagrams for B and C:
1689140263548.png

1689140391206.png

Finally,
what da dog doin?
1689139989363.png