Things I don't like about the Gun Mettle update:
- Thread starter tyler
- Start date
Can I ignore the majority of the complaints? ... which are about the Wallet
Some of the concerns you've mentioned (and this is just my opinion), are valid and I would not deny you that. Normally, you're right, you should always pay an artist upfront for their work, to some degree, but if that was the case, a lot of art-based and non-art-based start ups wouldn't happen. There's a bit of trust that everyone needs to have when working as freelancers/contractors, etc. etc. Thats what we have with Valve, like them or not, you should trust them to do it right... and as Valve likes they trust us to make a huge stint out of something if they don't do it right...
... the Workshop Agreement helps with that too.
I dunno, maybe I should email them myself. I've emailed Valve probably 6 times, and gotten a response most of those times, so who knows?
I think with contractors though, those people get brought on as outside help and are salaried. If someone is freelancing, they're usually presenting finished or almost-finished products to companies for purchase, with the idea that maybe there's something the company and creator can do further on the project. So it's not exactly the same, in my eyes.
It's true that it's not exactly like the classic "We can't pay, but you get exposure!" line because the authors are being paid. But to me, the Steam Wallet criticism is very key to the issue because that's their motivation for doing it this way at all; the more money people transfer money in Steam, the more money they make, and releasing content the way they do in CS:GO is just more profitable than the way they had been releasing it for TF2. So in that sense I think the Steam Wallet definitely did inform their decision making.
I think with contractors though, those people get brought on as outside help and are salaried. If someone is freelancing, they're usually presenting finished or almost-finished products to companies for purchase, with the idea that maybe there's something the company and creator can do further on the project. So it's not exactly the same, in my eyes.
It's true that it's not exactly like the classic "We can't pay, but you get exposure!" line because the authors are being paid. But to me, the Steam Wallet criticism is very key to the issue because that's their motivation for doing it this way at all; the more money people transfer money in Steam, the more money they make, and releasing content the way they do in CS:GO is just more profitable than the way they had been releasing it for TF2. So in that sense I think the Steam Wallet definitely did inform their decision making.
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I guess I'll put some thoughts in.
First, I'd really like to know what the status of map stamps are going forward. Stamps have been a real life saver for me over the past two years, sometimes literally keeping me from having to find money for groceries. I think that giving the TF2 community the ability to at any time donate to a mapper is huge, and really speaks volumes about the sort of community I want to inhabit. If maps going forward are going to never again be associated with stamps, I'd be really unhappy, as I don't view maps as something whose value is strictly tied to a very specific event. For the sort of players I designed maps for, Process isn't going anywhere (even if some event stops) and they will always want to reward me for it. Maps exist, they don't vanish just because 3 months pass by, and people who want to support a mapper should be able to.
I'm fine with the primary means of rewarding mappers being tied to CS-GO style events, but see no reason why the stamps have to be phased out in the future. Any map that Valve purchases should have a stamp set up in the store, to ensure that anyone who wants to support a mapper can do so at any time, regardless of what event is playing. After all, I'm sure there are quite a few people out there who don't care about cosmetics, events, or assignments (?) and just want to shower money on mappers, and I'd hate to limit those individuals to 6 dollar purchases that are completely detached from their own interest (supporting maps). A dollar donation tagged onto the end of a purchase in the store may not seem like much, but things like that add up and I'd be really sad if it wasn't a part of becoming a community map in the future.
Second, the money I got form the initial sale of Process and Standin was amazing. 14k probably isn't a lot at a company like Valve, but for me it was the difference between 6 months of mapping or a full time job. Now, it sounds like an event like this may generate equal to or more than that amount (for less maps etc, etc) but the solidity of knowing Valve will pay the mapper X versus "who knows how much people might pay this update" shouldn't be overlooked. I've been up against the uncertainty of not knowing how much money I'm going to get for stamps in a given month, and having to plan around that when ones finances are in no way secure (due to the largely wish fulfillment path I've chosen to follow) can be extremely taxing. So, as long as events like this are stable (or, at least, unstable in an upward direction), then fine, lose the map purchase amount, but I'd hate for mappers in the future to be getting a raw deal because the TF2 economy hits the shitter. To put it another way, Valve ain't hurting financially, so having them pay X ahead of time for a map doesn't seem that unreasonable.
First, I'd really like to know what the status of map stamps are going forward. Stamps have been a real life saver for me over the past two years, sometimes literally keeping me from having to find money for groceries. I think that giving the TF2 community the ability to at any time donate to a mapper is huge, and really speaks volumes about the sort of community I want to inhabit. If maps going forward are going to never again be associated with stamps, I'd be really unhappy, as I don't view maps as something whose value is strictly tied to a very specific event. For the sort of players I designed maps for, Process isn't going anywhere (even if some event stops) and they will always want to reward me for it. Maps exist, they don't vanish just because 3 months pass by, and people who want to support a mapper should be able to.
I'm fine with the primary means of rewarding mappers being tied to CS-GO style events, but see no reason why the stamps have to be phased out in the future. Any map that Valve purchases should have a stamp set up in the store, to ensure that anyone who wants to support a mapper can do so at any time, regardless of what event is playing. After all, I'm sure there are quite a few people out there who don't care about cosmetics, events, or assignments (?) and just want to shower money on mappers, and I'd hate to limit those individuals to 6 dollar purchases that are completely detached from their own interest (supporting maps). A dollar donation tagged onto the end of a purchase in the store may not seem like much, but things like that add up and I'd be really sad if it wasn't a part of becoming a community map in the future.
Second, the money I got form the initial sale of Process and Standin was amazing. 14k probably isn't a lot at a company like Valve, but for me it was the difference between 6 months of mapping or a full time job. Now, it sounds like an event like this may generate equal to or more than that amount (for less maps etc, etc) but the solidity of knowing Valve will pay the mapper X versus "who knows how much people might pay this update" shouldn't be overlooked. I've been up against the uncertainty of not knowing how much money I'm going to get for stamps in a given month, and having to plan around that when ones finances are in no way secure (due to the largely wish fulfillment path I've chosen to follow) can be extremely taxing. So, as long as events like this are stable (or, at least, unstable in an upward direction), then fine, lose the map purchase amount, but I'd hate for mappers in the future to be getting a raw deal because the TF2 economy hits the shitter. To put it another way, Valve ain't hurting financially, so having them pay X ahead of time for a map doesn't seem that unreasonable.
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One thing that is important to note is that valve is not doing content curation anymore, those days are over. They are not looking for maps they want to buy, they are looking for maps the community wants to support and the new model reflects just that.
The game is different now and I don't think there's any going back.
The game is different now and I don't think there's any going back.
Toomai
L3: Member
- Apr 14, 2011
- 129
- 144
I think it's pretty telling that wording in the update notes is "featured community maps", as opposed to "added community maps" like for previous updates (Gullywash, Process).
I can't wait to hear the answer.
Yeah but when has Valve ever been 100% clear about anything on the blog or update pages?
Personally I hope they are calling them featured maps just because Valve is running special servers with the maps and they aren't running them on their normal servers. I do think that if Valve did remove them from the game when the event finishes there are going to be a lot of angry people in the community, Valve has never removed maps from the game before and I can't imagine the community would be very happy about it.
My hope is this is basically Valve's way of buying new maps, and when the event is over they'll just add map stamps to the store for these maps and add them to their normal server rotations. Assuming there is a month or two break between events that means there will probably be 3 or so of these events a year, and that means probably around 9-12 community maps made official. That would be an amazing, positive change to Valve adding community maps.
Hopefully Fr0Z3n will get a response soon from Valve.
It's a holiday weekend, so don't expect anything until next week.
You gotta factor in Valve time to it as well, so a holiday weekend plus Valve time probably means you'll get the response right after the event ends and we all know anyway.
There is this one guy I've been chatting with via email that's doing some of the OS X work. On the big SPUF thread about the update he replied THREE TIMES. If you want his email PM me, he's the type of developer you want to have with these kinds of issues.
Did the CSGO updates actually include the maps in the updates or were they just added to Valve servers and you still had to download them from the workshop? The blog post for Operation Payback, the first CSGO update like this makes it's clear that it's just for playing these maps on official Valve servers. I'm looking at the CSGO wiki but they don't have the file changes listed for the patches like the TF2 wiki does. My assumption was that you still needed to download the CSGO maps from the workshop for the CSGO operations and they weren't actually added into the game like these 3 maps but I could be wrong about this because I don't play CSGO.
If Valve didn't intend for these maps to be permanent they could of just required us to download them from the workshop and only just run the workshop versions of the maps on their servers. As of now every client and every server, not just Valve servers has a copy of these three maps and taking away content that everyone has in the game just doesn't seem to be in the spirit of what Valve has done for TF2 in the past. Even maps and modes they no longer support by not running official servers for are still in the game and they still let people run their own servers with that content.
Honestly that's why I think that these maps are here to stay. If they really didn't intend for them to be permanent why include them in the update and allow community servers to run the maps?
Edit: I asked about this on the CSGO thread on another message board and someone told me that the maps do download to the game client for the operations but they are left on the client's computer if they want to connect to a community server that has the map. It doesn't like custom servers get the maps.
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It upsets me that the only Gun Mettle map that's guaranteed to be in the game permanently is Powerhouse, the most boring map of the lot.
(Unless they remove that too, but why would Valve themselves devote so much time to something that will only be in the game for a few months?)
(Unless they remove that too, but why would Valve themselves devote so much time to something that will only be in the game for a few months?)
Lampenpam
aa
- Mar 23, 2013
- 1,013
- 347
The better question is why would Valve remove a mao on which you can get achivments?
And the looks of the map are not really impresive indeed, I wonder what people think of it's gameplay though.
Regarding custom content packed in to BSPs: Repacked BSP content takes up half the space of content in VPKs. That means a player needs to have more than two Suijins on his system for it to be considered wasteful. Given that a map author does not have to include all of the content from a TF2m theme pack in his map, in reality it could take a handful of maps to equal the disk space usage.
There is the potential for theme pack content to be purchased by Valve and included in the game's files in future. There might also be potential for authors of custom content to receive proceeds in future campaigns where their assets are used in new sets of highlighted community maps.
Regarding maps being removed from the game after a campaign has ended: According to the Gun Mettle Update FAQ, a player can begin the Gun Mettle campaign any time until the last of the three months it is active. That could mean we will see the current round of maps on Valve servers for at least five months.
Things to consider: Doubtless a lot of work has been put in to these maps by authors and content creators. But most of them contain a lot of pre-existing TF2 assets, which along with the map authoring tools and the game itself are owned by Valve. Without them we wouldn't be able to create these maps for purchase, or inclusion in to a commercial campaign.
With the advent of the workshop, Valve's push to get more people generating content across its platforms, tutorial videos, authoring communities and just the generation-upon-generation improvement in computer comprehension, there are a lot of custom maps which are at least the same quality of gameplay and aesthetics as existing official TF2 maps and they will probably keep on coming. The game already has a lot of maps, so the historic practice of picking two or three community maps per year might not serve everyone very well, now. Highlighting three community maps for a short period and directing players' attention to them with special servers and an exciting new (paid-for) campaign lets them show more community maps than before. Even if map authors receive less pay for their work, more of them will be paid. It's easy to be cynical that Valve is profiting from this, but it's a mutually beneficial arrangement, and they are a business.
I wonder also, if Valve does not place as much importance on TF2 maps today because of the age of the game. That might be a consideration for them in their financial strategy, here.
If Valve discontinue featuring the current round of maps at some point and take them off dedicated rotation servers, it might be a good time for them to transition competent players to community-run servers that use the map workshop to host these maps. There is discussion on the HLDS mailing list about ways to open up community servers to the newbie/casual playerbase. Perhaps Valve could add workshop maps to their quickplay system, and then carefully direct players to servers running the maps. They wouldn't have to include the maps with the game files, and they would be using the vacuum left behind by the maps to draw players to other good quality custom content, perhaps with a view to finding the next set of featured maps through any resulting workshop ratings.
I recommend against contacting an individual developer directly for a question (if you don't have a rapport with them) as group emails (TF team email form on the Valve site) might receive job numbers, and are more likely to be looked at by more than one person. Individual devs might be working on an unrelated part of the game, and might prefer not to have to deal with an abundance of mail detailing issues that they can do nothing about.
The problem with using the workshop to host featured maps at this stage is the workshop is not ready for proper usage. Script files included in workshop maps are dysfunctional (though I think that's to do with repacking, not filenames). They also don't appear to have the facility to freeze a workshop map submission so that it can't be updated, and hiding them prevents them from being downloaded. There's also the possibility of a map author's account being compromised, and someone uploading Harbl Hotel! Imagine it.
Regarding Powerhouse - Valve have made mistakes with their maps in the past. Clipping issues have been resolved months later. Hydro isn't included on Quickplay because, although it seems to have been their melting pot during the game's development for the ideas of how a TF2 map should look, feel and play, it stalemates (and is a bit confusing IMHO). I haven't played Powerhouse much so can't really say how I feel about it. I wonder what design decisions led to its creation. Perhaps it is simply a result of some creative freedom approach? Or perhaps they saw a gap they felt they needed to fill?
I apologise if any of my observations are poor.
There is the potential for theme pack content to be purchased by Valve and included in the game's files in future. There might also be potential for authors of custom content to receive proceeds in future campaigns where their assets are used in new sets of highlighted community maps.
Regarding maps being removed from the game after a campaign has ended: According to the Gun Mettle Update FAQ, a player can begin the Gun Mettle campaign any time until the last of the three months it is active. That could mean we will see the current round of maps on Valve servers for at least five months.
Things to consider: Doubtless a lot of work has been put in to these maps by authors and content creators. But most of them contain a lot of pre-existing TF2 assets, which along with the map authoring tools and the game itself are owned by Valve. Without them we wouldn't be able to create these maps for purchase, or inclusion in to a commercial campaign.
With the advent of the workshop, Valve's push to get more people generating content across its platforms, tutorial videos, authoring communities and just the generation-upon-generation improvement in computer comprehension, there are a lot of custom maps which are at least the same quality of gameplay and aesthetics as existing official TF2 maps and they will probably keep on coming. The game already has a lot of maps, so the historic practice of picking two or three community maps per year might not serve everyone very well, now. Highlighting three community maps for a short period and directing players' attention to them with special servers and an exciting new (paid-for) campaign lets them show more community maps than before. Even if map authors receive less pay for their work, more of them will be paid. It's easy to be cynical that Valve is profiting from this, but it's a mutually beneficial arrangement, and they are a business.
I wonder also, if Valve does not place as much importance on TF2 maps today because of the age of the game. That might be a consideration for them in their financial strategy, here.
If Valve discontinue featuring the current round of maps at some point and take them off dedicated rotation servers, it might be a good time for them to transition competent players to community-run servers that use the map workshop to host these maps. There is discussion on the HLDS mailing list about ways to open up community servers to the newbie/casual playerbase. Perhaps Valve could add workshop maps to their quickplay system, and then carefully direct players to servers running the maps. They wouldn't have to include the maps with the game files, and they would be using the vacuum left behind by the maps to draw players to other good quality custom content, perhaps with a view to finding the next set of featured maps through any resulting workshop ratings.
I recommend against contacting an individual developer directly for a question (if you don't have a rapport with them) as group emails (TF team email form on the Valve site) might receive job numbers, and are more likely to be looked at by more than one person. Individual devs might be working on an unrelated part of the game, and might prefer not to have to deal with an abundance of mail detailing issues that they can do nothing about.
The problem with using the workshop to host featured maps at this stage is the workshop is not ready for proper usage. Script files included in workshop maps are dysfunctional (though I think that's to do with repacking, not filenames). They also don't appear to have the facility to freeze a workshop map submission so that it can't be updated, and hiding them prevents them from being downloaded. There's also the possibility of a map author's account being compromised, and someone uploading Harbl Hotel! Imagine it.
Regarding Powerhouse - Valve have made mistakes with their maps in the past. Clipping issues have been resolved months later. Hydro isn't included on Quickplay because, although it seems to have been their melting pot during the game's development for the ideas of how a TF2 map should look, feel and play, it stalemates (and is a bit confusing IMHO). I haven't played Powerhouse much so can't really say how I feel about it. I wonder what design decisions led to its creation. Perhaps it is simply a result of some creative freedom approach? Or perhaps they saw a gap they felt they needed to fill?
I apologise if any of my observations are poor.
There's no way Valve is going to remove Powerhouse when the event it over, it's just going to go on standard Valve servers (which I also think is what will happen to the 3 community maps, they will no longer be "featured" on the Gun Mettle servers just on the normal Valve servers.
Honestly with the way that's worded I don't think the campaign servers will last 5 months, it will just be the 3 months (unless they extended it a little bit) I think it pretty much means if you buy the coin 2 months in you just get a lot more contracts every week so you get the same amount as someone who bought it on day one.