The TF2 Pro Mappers opinion in non-regular TF2 maps (i.e trade maps)

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by TheONE, Jun 4, 2013.

  1. TheONE

    TheONE L1: Registered

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    Hey guys,

    I have noticed the behavior of several TF2 mappers (mostly experienced mappers) and how they react when they see someone is mapping a non-regular TF2 maps, and i mean by non-regular those maps which have been designed for trade maps, mini-games, mini-events, death-race, etc...

    I don't know why those people always make fun and don't like those who build such maps (as if they have done a silly work) and they don't give those kind of maps the same respect as the other types of maps. :( :confused:

    well I wrote this post, cuz i want to see the others way of thinking and thoughts and why they are acting like that !

    In my opinion i find the non-regular maps are fun and it gives more freedom for the mapper to show his creativity, while regular maps they all look the same to me. :)
     
  2. Sergis

    aa Sergis L666: ])oo]v[

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    They are beneath me.
     
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    Last edited: Jun 4, 2013
  3. Crash

    aa Crash func_nerd

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    Usually non-standard maps have very little effort put into them, aesthetically or gameplay-wise. See: cp_orange
     
  4. TheONE

    TheONE L1: Registered

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    i agree with you, but there are some which are decent !, moreover, sometime you can make creative stuff with less effort.

    i think maps should be evaluated based on the creativity and the idea behind them more than the effort placed.
     
  5. Faux Rhinoceros

    aa Faux Rhinoceros Also known as Dr. Element

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    Here are some of the most common non-traditional maps i can think of:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    What they have in common is that they are butt-ugly and poorly made.

    Most of the non-regular maps we see look like this for some reason, and it seems to me that most non-standard maps are made purely because the often inexperienced creator wants to build something without having to worry about aesthetics, layout and logic setup.
    This is just fine, and we all did that... There's just absolutely no reason to clutter a site like this with it.

    I never uploaded anything till i had something i thought was worth showing off.
     
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  6. phi

    aa phi Within The Vacuum Of Infinity...

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    the world would be quite a different place if it worked like that.

    and again, it tends to be that a 'creative' idea uses at least semi-standard map types. there isn't really any way to have a truly "good" idea for a map when the only use for said map is for dm-ing or trading and there is no real gameplay had on the map.
    additionally, if a mapper puts tons of effort into a map it's bound to be better evaluated and received than maps without effort. simply put, if you don't put effort into a map, you won't get a good result.
     
  7. TheONE

    TheONE L1: Registered

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    The reason behind we don't have great non-regular trade maps is that all the experienced mappers, are not interested in doing non-regular maps (while some feel it is beneath their level.

    If experienced mappers tried to crate non-regular maps and make it perfect, then we would have a great variety of ideas and maps.

    I agree with you here, but why don't we have a section/sub-section for it or at least try to make contests for it.
     
  8. Crash

    aa Crash func_nerd

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    Those sort of maps end up on Gamebanana. This site is more for serious/ standard TF2 maps.

    What makes a "great" trade map, exactly?
     
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  9. TheONE

    TheONE L1: Registered

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    the design and layout of the map + the entertainment features that the mapper puts into it.
     
  10. Crash

    aa Crash func_nerd

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    Entertainment features I can understand, but the problem lies in design and layout. This site is generally for people who study and analyze what makes a TF2 map good and try to create maps based on those concepts and principles. When the objective of the "game" is to stand around and trade, there isn't much to study.

    There are a quite a lot of "non-standard" maps around the site if you look. Pipeball is a good example of that. The non-respect generally comes out towards people who haven't put in the effort/ time to study what makes a map good and take the easy route of idle/ trade maps.
     
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  11. A Boojum Snark

    aa A Boojum Snark Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado

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    I've made plenty of non-standard, silly, ridiculous maps in my time (albeit they still could be played, not trade/idle). The thing is, my aversion to the kind you are talking about goes beyond the mapper/maps themselves.

    I can accept making a pointless map for art practice.
    I can accept making a non-objective map for screwing around on.
    I can accept low quality maps from new mappers.
    I can accept gimmick maps.

    I have done all of it myself.

    However, I can not under any circumstance, appreciate, condone, encourage, or accept the attitude, desires and mentality that drives the creation and use of these maps.
    Idle maps? A special map for idling? Really? You can do that on any map you want, and if you aren't even there who cares which it is or what it looks like. It's all just for greed and trading anyway, and why do we even need a trade map or trade servers? It is an incredibly inefficient process to seek out trades in small cordoned off groups of 32 or fewer players. Especially now that steam has out-of-game inventory APIs and item trading, websites can accomplish the function of finding trades in a vastly superior manner. Hanging around on a trade server just serves to foster greed, inflate egos, and perpetuate the inanity.

    /rant
     
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  12. Faux Rhinoceros

    aa Faux Rhinoceros Also known as Dr. Element

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  13. Antonhel

    Antonhel L1: Registered

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    How do you even solve that cube?
     
  14. Egan

    aa Egan

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    Another "non-regular" type of map is surf, which I map for mostly. So in my opinion as long as you do a good job on it, and you like it, then don't worry what other people think unless they're contributing feedback or appreciation.

    "If you're mapping because you love putting stuff together and watching people enjoy it then get used to bending to the communities whims and settle in as "decent but not exceptional" Level Designer. If you're mapping because you want to express yourself Express your goddamned self. Make what you think is cool, listen to advice and complaints and then take it on board when you make what you want to make again.

    People don't know what they want. They're VERY good at finding out something is wrong, but they're TERRIBLE at figuring out what it is and how to solve it. You as the creative person behind this endeavour need to take the leed. Trust your expert opinion to hear what they're saying and adjust things the way you think you should to try solve their problems. And if you don't think you should adjust things, ask yourself why. If you don't think you have an expert opinion and are willing to just do what people want you're never going to revolutionize anything.

    The one thing the internet has taught everyone is that you're not as unique as you think you might be. If you think it's fun someone else probably will too and there's nothing wrong with serving a niche market. You can't make the games you don't find fun. The true art is figuring out how to make it fun for yourself, and experience is the only way." - Angry Beaver
     
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  15. Pocket

    aa Pocket func_croc

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    The only "non-regular" maps I can see as having any useful purpose are maps for homebrewed, experimental gamemodes and mod-based gamemodes like Vs. Saxton Hale. Idle and trade maps are literally just there to look pretty, and in the case of the latter make what they're supposedly there for less convenient than every other possible method of doing it, as Booj said.

    It's also annoying as hell that the only requests for maps-on-commission are for these types of maps. Which means that we regularly encounter people who not only want useless maps to get made, but they also don't want to do it themselves.
     
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  16. henke37

    aa henke37

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    I have to agree here, trade and idle maps are just stupid. I prefer stupid, insane and hilarious like the foolsday entries.
     
  17. Fish 2.0

    Fish 2.0 L6: Sharp Member

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    Posting trade maps here is like posting image slideshows on YouTube.
     
  18. Lampenpam

    aa Lampenpam

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    I only map for moded gamemodes. Mostly because the excisting maps for that gamemode look like.... well, you know, the gamebana quality you hate.

    When Mecha the Slag coded the super Smash Bros gamemode for TF2, there were three maps which were all just made of a few simple brushes and I waited realy long on a map with great atmosphere like the stages in the Super Smash Bros. series.
    Because nobody was doing it, I start mapping to make maps which I want them to look like. So my first SB map looked liek this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_IJtkO6Fhc
    Looks pretty random but that was my point, I want to keep a few random flying plattforms, like in smash bros, and places which looked very different to make the design of the map interesting.


    The reason why I never mapped for the regular gamemode is, because there are already good looking maps, and I want to make my maps more unique.
    But is their quality worse then regular maps?

    I find the best mapper in cs:s are the mapper at the custom gamemode "Zombie escape"

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMqgdsg96CA

    That's simply amazing imo. It's basicaly Final fantasy VII rebuild in 3D, epic music, other maps also have nice filsm/games tributes, realy awesome scripted bosses, items and more.
    Rarely can regular maps for TF2 or cs:s impresses me as much as maps which try to implent uniqe ideas. Especially Zombie escape is a great example of maps with good design and impresive scripts and ideas.

    PS: Don't get me wrong, I don't think that maps for the regular gamemode are not very skillfull. I often play them and they rarely got the quality of gamebanana.
     
  19. JBEZORG

    JBEZORG L1: Registered

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    I am really looking forward to create a payload map with the new "Pacific Pack", but would this not also a non-standard map ?
     
  20. Lampenpam

    aa Lampenpam

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    Well the OP said
    So if you do a "regular" Payload map with different setting, then I think it's a regular map for this thread, if I'm not wrong... otherwise every map with custom tex n models would be unregular for this thread.

    And Im looking forward for that pack too~ ♪