Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by LeSwordfish, May 19, 2013.
I never ever suggested retheming maps.
then its even more boring
Is it good to have brand new original content in an update? Yes.
Is it really needed? No. People won't care about it a month afterwards. They care about the content. Drumming up interest ahead of time is fun, but not useful here.
I think we need very few, but really great maps here. No more than five maps. But they should play really well, be properly optimized and at the same time look great.
We could use a comic or something to promote it sure, but is it needed? No. What is needed is quality content.
Would a cohesive theme work? No, I do not think so. Should we avoid getting overshadowed by other updates? Yes.
Do I think that a very long deadline is going to be useful? No. We should focus on what we already have and show the world the best, not attempt to invent the rocket powered wheel.
the reskins comment actually came from my tired brain adding 'holidays' to 'existing maps' and forgetting about existing maps that already kinda fit the theme.
in any case i'd rather be creating something new instead of dwelling on whats already has been made as a community update with old maps is not an update, its a compilation
then again, there is nothing preventing us from doing both a pack of existing maps as a compilation or even revival of that quarterly mappack thingie and a pack of new maps as the shiny professional holiday update that will eclipse even those made by valve themselves ( provided there are enough mappers willing to make new maps and able to finish them of course )
I think trying to make a maps version of the community updates Facepunch Emporium members have made feels like it doesn't fit and could be really forced. I think if you want a cohesive update there need to be a running theme, be it a gamemode type or detailing theme, otherwise I think you'd all do better promoting and improving on your maps individually.
If your goal in this is to just get it taken on officially then stop now, it took a lot of time to make those community update outside of making the content itself, not just individually each update but to improve and iterate on the idea of how a community item update works and to polish it and organize it. If you look through them from The Medieval Update, Night of the Living Update, Night of the Living Update 2 you can see a lot has changed.
If the collected maps are all related through theme I don't think it's a problem to reuse old maps that are unfinished but good and detail them in the same way but to undetail then to redetail seems a bit strange.
I also had no intention of it being official in any way.
You might not have, but based on what was said in this thread... A lot of people thought of it that way.
At least, thats what I saw.
Sorry, that was a mistake.
Would people be interested in trying to do the tf2m map packs again? That seems like a good stopgap solution.
I'd love to make a map for a community pack.
What if we thought of a cool theme, and then all banded together on working for it? We could have some people making art assets, others making maps and make it open to the public for testing. (I'm not entirely sure how this would run though)
Don't know what the hell got into me yesterday, but I had that bug people seem to get sometimes called "productivity"... God, it was awful, I got like this map thing I was working on like a year ago to almost a playable alpha.
It sucked. I really hope it doesn't happen again.
... that being said. I would happily assist, manage, map, create, yell at, critique, cry, eat chocolate, wrestle a bear for a map pack, if you need it.
So let's say we liked the idea of doing a themed pack with all-new maps. Would it make sense to choose a theme ASAP and a date to re-evaluate the viability of the pack?
For example, choose the "holiday" theme now, and everyone who wants to be involved gets on to that, and then at the end of september we reconvene and see if enough people are still working on their maps to be worth continuing with.
EDIT: Theme Discussion
Turbo Lover: The problem I feel with the specific themes of "exotic" or "holiday"
Turbo Lover: Is that I'd be expecting drastically different themes every time
Idolon: i think the continent idea could really work
Idolon: tf2 goes to europe
Old Sport: i have ideas that could work well for south america
Idolon: or south america
Old Sport: europes a good one
Idolon: or antarctica
umb: Man I'd totally make a Norway map for Europe
Old Sport: since its very diverse
Old Sport: and includes snow, mediterranian, maritime,
Old Sport: even medieval
Idolon: german castles
Idolon: i like this europe idea
Idolon: spud could finally do his vineyard idea
Old Sport: one problem is that its diverse but not exotic
Old Sport: no hidden temples and vines
Old Sport: if you get me
umb: why do you want that
Old Sport: one of the reasons i liked "exotic" is that maps like Borneo, Ankor, earkham's khmer stuff etc
Old Sport: is all really cool
Idolon: we could just do tf2 visits the other giant land mass
Idolon: and include asia, europe, and africa
Old Sport: tf2: sims 3: world adventures
Old Sport: indiana-jones-map style splash page
umb: sure, that could be cool
Idolon: oh man that would be rad
umb: now that I think about it a map based on a fjord would be lame
umb: it'd just be an alpine-ish map with a fjord skybox
Idolon: get the pirate map with an X for every map
Idolon: and have a little dotted line
Idolon: and then we could roll it out one map per day
Old Sport: add in some key theme with all of them
Old Sport: like an australium thing or something
Old Sport: to create the bare minimum of plot
First, this should not be one of our contests, this should be a demonstration of all the talent we possess here, and as such should be restricted as little as possible to best allow for that to be drawn out. You're not explicitly advocating a strict theme be used, but I feel I should mention that that would be counteractive to enabling a mapper's freedom, for obvious reasons. Limiting creative freedom and what-have-you., what you do seem to be pushing is this idea of lots of different map settings in one big grab bag.
I'm not a fan of that because of what that means for the collection of maps, as a whole. I mean what if we get say, a map in the jungle like Borneo, a map on a beach like Ventus and four maps set in Egypt. The open ended-ness of a "Holiday" or "Exotic" theme could leave one theme dangerously unused and another dangerously overused. Or what if we don't get all the maps we were hoping to get by the end of it and one or two popular themes are left out. I said it quite simply in the chat: "I'd be expecting drastically different themes every time." And if I didn't get that, I'd be pretty disappointed.
A quick point about checking back in September to see if the theme would be worth continuing at that point, you said yourself that at that time, most if not all of the maps would still be in alpha, could we get an accurate idea of whether something will sink or swim so early in the development process?
My second major point, is that if, 3 months in, we don't like how we're progressing, that's still 3 months gone. You said that any alpha maps could be rethemed easily to account for any changes in decisions or that we could start new maps. I'll concede that the alpha maps that were already in progress could still make it to the end, but starting new maps with a 3 month handicap isn't a good idea, and should be a worst case scenario only, and this idea of picking a them NOW and we'll see if it works in 3 months time makes the possibility of starting fresh higher than what a worst case scenario ought to be.
My opinion is that there is absolutely nothing wrong with just making maps to the best of our ability, and putting that out there as the final outcome for this adventure, their cohesiveness is in their quality, not the fact that all the maps look like they're each from different countries.
I like a lot this place, it's really tf2-ish, it's located in France and IMO it could make a good theme.
Oh and if you try to create a new theme, I can help to make a pattern for the mappers who aren't that good with the details.
we will know how it goes before the recheck date anyway by the amount and progress of the maps being worked on, its not like we'll be living in the dark for 3 months mapping in offline mode. if say six weeks in there will be only two maps beyond a2, it'll be obvious enough that its time to pull the plug.
i also believe that a themed mappack would be stronger, would scream 'IM QUALITY, MOTHERFUCKERS!' louder than a random bag of maps. once we get to detailing part, the individual vision of each mapper should produce different enough maps within the chosen theme, even if half of them are tropical resorts and the other half ski resorts.
there is nothing wrong with just making quality maps, but we can do even better than that.
As before, replies in bold.
Exactly! This is what i've been thinking. Not only does it show quality, but it screams it at the top of its lungs, throws it in the face of even the dimmest and most custom-phobic player.
I appreciate that this word is not one often paired with "motherfuckers!" but it's not just quality, it's professionalism. We are good at what we do, yes. But damn, if we don't also have style.
I have a metric butt ton of images from The Colorado Front Range. It's almost like fusion of sawmill, meets dustbowl meets gorge... I can share more images if you'd like.
Another idea I had is, a lot of the current themes are old, and compared to new maps, they are kind of "meh" ... what if it was a set of maps that was build to "recreate" the theme, or enhance it? "Dustbowl Theme +" or "Egypt Theme+" for example.
I'm working on a brand new PL map that is testing well and is ready for a full detail pass. I would love to try one of the suggested themes. If nothing else, maybe we can use the map as a rallying call to get this project off the ground.
If you are a modeler/texture artists contact me.
As I saw some mentions to Angkor while lurking around, I just wanted to say that, as soon as I'm finished polishing and releasing a RC of my map (which shouldn't take long), I can upload the source files of the models and textures used in pl_angkor if you need them. (so you would be able to modify them using maya and photoshop source files)
I guess you won't need them, but as I don't think I will work on another TF2 map, that's all I can do to help.
Other than that, did you consider doing something with another mapping community (either collaboration or kind of competition) ?
Something like the "dominance war" between several 3D communities ... although I don't know if they are other TF2 mapping communities or if you could convince Source mappers like guys from Mapcore to be involved in this.
Anyway, good luck for whatever you end up doing !
I think that Frozen's idea of using old themes to try and do something new is a good idea, I just think it's been pretty fleshed out at this point. It seems like it's so simple it would be complicated. Personally I do agree that we need a consistent theme throughout any map pack we do (whether a game-type or visual theme I couldn't say), and this is the biggest problem with a "vacation/holiday" theme. When I see that I have several extremely different images pop into my mind and I don't think that that's really a good thing, primarily because it would be a "bad" surprise.
Personally for a theme I suggest an "Australian Outback" type theme
Sorry about image quality on some of them
Personally I think it would be a good way to present "old" content, generally I think it would look almost like Hydro (preferably without the general negativity though).
I'm just seeing this project now.
If it isn't a contest, the theme has to be determined by the contributors. Determining who is actually interested and willing to participate is really the first priority. Assemble a small core, make a choice, and get crackin'
In my mind, a pack would look something like this:
4 maps: PL, CP, KOTH, A/D
Those 4 maps use similar models. The authors communicate with other contributors to determine need.
Hats and other goodies added.
Bam, a community update.
Separate names with a comma.