TF2 megatask: making capture the flag popular

BrokenTripod

L5: Dapper Member
May 11, 2009
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If you don't mind having Red attacking (it's convention to have Blu attack, Red defend) then you could just flip the teams for the spawns for each team and the spawn rooms and the flag and any other team-dependent entity.

I don't know of another way, but I'm not an expert with the entities.
 

Jyyst

L1: Registered
Aug 24, 2012
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I got a few solutions for the problem with "the no-gameplay state" after flag is stolen.

1. Make the flag slow the carrier + increase self inflicted damage on the carier by a fair amount.

2. Make forward spawns for red that are activated after flag is stolen. So red basicly intervenes with blu somewhere later in the map while blu is carrying flag to base.

RS____F__________________RS2_______BS

RS= redspawn, F=flag, RS2=spawn that activates after flag is stolen ,BS=bluespawn
 

henke37

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Sep 23, 2011
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Normal asymmetric maps give one team the win when they switch. You want to hear the existing solution to this? Enable tournament mode. Then the game counts wins for you instead of individual captured points/flags.
 

PHISH

L1: Registered
Sep 14, 2012
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Normal asymmetric maps give one team the win when they switch. You want to hear the existing solution to this? Enable tournament mode. Then the game counts wins for you instead of individual captured points/flags.
Hmm I don't think i've seen a public game yet using tournament mode, I'm guessing that would be a no go. Too much potential for griefing with the whole ready state thing unless there's a way to force it.

Anyway mulling this over further it may make more sense to try to balance each round so if defense holds offense below X caps they get the "win", with the overall cap numbers at the end still used for "ultimate victor!" purposes. This gives the first team on defense a hard goal to shoot for at least, and probably works better with the existing entities available.
 

Ravidge

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May 14, 2008
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Sadly it doesn't sound like you guys ever have experienced the classic TF CTF gameplay in organized teams, so I think you are underestimating the many elements that made that game unique and exciting (and completely different) than say dustbowl A/D.

TF2 punishes death highly, and due to the mechanics of the medic and uber it drastically changes how CTF plays at the top level. Instead of layered defense and a fast paced offensive attack it becomes a very conservative push and hold game with one ginormous blob. If it's a push and hold game it might as well be CP, because that's what the mode is suited for and that's how it plays.

What the mode I'm proposing would do is open up the door for more aggressive play on offense (because they don't have to worry about the other team steamrolling to their flag if they fail) as well as bring back some of the CTF excitement of flag pulls...most importantly it helps improve the pub game experience.

There are other elements that could be improved because a lot of the CTF maps in TF2 are in cramped low ceiling flag rooms leaving little room for finesse flag grab attempts, but those could come with time.

I played competitive TFC for about a year and a half. Not at the highest level by any means, but it was at least above the "just playing/joking around" tier, I played defense, soldier.

TFC is a completely different beast from TF2, it's not comparable, and with these new fundamental changes to gameplay, the traditional ctf model just doesn't work anymore.

To understand why you can't emulate TFC ctf in tf2, I need to explain TFC (for those who didn't play it):
Flag capping in TFC was basically 4-5 medics*/scouts throwing themselves at a defence (4-3 players) over and over for 30 minutes and then at the end seeing which team got through (and out again) the most.
That kind of gameplay is impossible to sell today, no matter how you disguise it, it's very repetitive and the reward is low, while extremely high paced and difficult.
*medics in tfc were more or less a slightly tankier version of a scout

Either way, there's something important to note here, the battle was extremely one-sided (but happened on both sides of the map, think of it as two 4v4 matches happening at the same time). The attackers had extreme tunnel vision on the flag at all times, the best strategy was to zoom past everyone and everything, flying through the air, if possible. IF they got the flag, the goal was to move it as far as possible, each attacker would come in after each other like a relay race, moving it further and further until it was out of reach for the defense (unless the flag got stuck in some corner, it was pretty rare to see a flag return on its own).

There was never a real conflict between A and D. If a attacker messes up their route they suicide themselves, if a defender lets a guy past, and he's out of health/armor/grenades he suicides too (any of the 3 is a valid excuse to do it), as long as he's back on his post before the attackers come back.

Ok. I'm done. What were we talking about? I got lost in thought, remembering tfc... I think I had a point to make when I started writing.
whatever, have a cool video with ancient music http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rDht5JmKP8 (that that this is a highlight video, not shown is the millions of deaths where he just get exploded by all the rockets, grenades and sentries)

Oh right, I remember:
What you'll end up with (if I interpreted your post right), is something that plays like very much like stage 3-2 of dustbowl, or any other final cp of a A/D map where the defense has a big initial advantage. You'll play that single point for 15 minutes then switch sides, and count how many times blue managed to get over there and capture the point (let's say it resets to red ownership after each capture).

It has exactly what you're looking for, shorter respawn times for attackers, and opportunity for teleporters even. And a clear goal for both teams.
Just because you make it a flag instead of a cp doesn't make much differance. It will not change much in terms of how teams approach the problem I think. A minor tweak in the gamemode doesn't suddenly change the whole metagame of ubers and airblasting and krtiz stickies, wrangled sentries, healing and just general pushing strategy.

edit: I missed this post:
Assuming the defending team is going to cluster deep inside their base and fail to meet the offensive team at the periphery of their base is unnatural. A layered defense with forward holds at choke points is typical to CTF. A layered defense means that supposing the outside layer is passed by some offensive players, they then are dealing with flag room defenders. The outer defenders will respawn before it is possible for the offensive players to clear out the flagroom defenses and exit with the flag. If the defense is choosing to pack everyone in the actual flag room then they are playing suboptimally and they deserve to lose the flag in one fell swoop. That is a rare occurance to get a "coast to coast" and I'm not sure why you think it would suddenly be the norm. It would be even less common once you take all those people that mindlessly dm in the midfield and have geared to protecting their flag.
The more I think about it, the less useful a outer layer of defense sounds.
Assuming it's 6v6, typical comp-tf2, maybe with some heavies and engineers where fitting, it's pretty easy to see how a team that DOESN'T split up will have a much easier time killing dudes and then dominating the flagroom and capping.
Putting 1-2 people in a outer defense just makes them easy kills.
TF2 has medics and ubers. And generally in tf2 you push and gain ground, you don't rush and solo the entire enemy team.
TFC had layered defence, but as I explained earlier, the attackers didn't actually fight the defence, you ran past it, if you could. It was more of a gauntlet and not a push into the flagroom.
 
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PHISH

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Sep 14, 2012
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I played top level tfc for pretty much the entire time there was a competitive scene. Have dabbled in TF2 competitive early on, but I still do follow the competitive scene there as well. I know they are wildly different meta games, but DM was a big part of it. You make it sound like offense and defense never tried to kill eachother lol.

I'm not trying to copy tfc, but to change the pace of action in TF2 to approach some of the elements that made CTF fun. I'm not trying to say that there would be one or 2 guys forward. You aren't going to have positions like in TFC. Most likely you are going to have the combo forward to meet the enemy just like currently happens, but you will still likely have fallback defenses at the flag for aforementioned reasons. TF2 CTF already largely plays this way.

A key difference in dynamics between capture point and capture the flag is capture point requires a decided control of the area before it makes sense to try and cap it. There is never a time when it makes sense to dive in and attempt to capture the point before clearing out everyone. This is contrary to capture the flag where it is possible to make some risky dives onto the flag (more open flag rooms permitting) to try and pull it out with defenders still around. The push mechanic will still be there, but there will be openings for 'finesse' attempts to grab the intelligence. Those risky and sometimes spectacular plays were a big part of what made CTF fun, and those are completely absent in TF2, partially because of the map design, but mostly due to what optimal play is in the TF2 meta game under current game modes.
 
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BrokenTripod

L5: Dapper Member
May 11, 2009
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"There is never a time when it makes sense to dive in and attempt to capture the point before clearing out everyone."

Actually, in Gorge, it sometimes makes sense to dive in and attempt to capture the point before clearing the area because it pulls the defense down into the pit and can help Blu get the height advantage. Doesn't always work and heavily depends on how good the Blu person in the pit can avoid getting shot.
 

BrokenTripod

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May 11, 2009
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Red doesn't always build sentries down in the pit or in spots capable of looking down into the pit. Plus, sometimes the sentry in the pit gets destroyed.
You know what I'm talking about
 

henke37

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Sep 23, 2011
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Sentries may have good aim, but they have a design flaw: they aim slowly.
 
Mar 23, 2010
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what like a half second before they lock on
 

henke37

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It can be longer if they are aimed in the opposite direction, but yes, it isn't a very long time.
 
Mar 23, 2010
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even in decent ctf games/maps it's pretty boring. csf is just fun as you defend and attack 3 different flag locations and is ultimately superior to ctf imo. can't really think of any drawbacks to csf other than it's pretty confusing and people just prefer the simplicity of ctf i guess?
 
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Pocket

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Nov 14, 2009
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What do y'all think of the idea of having three flags in different places per team, but having them all in play at once from the start? At worst, I suspect, that might make capturing a bit too easy. Might be worth trying sometime.