TF2 Map Game Modes Theory: Combining The Known With Everything Else

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by Trust, Oct 31, 2009.

  1. Trust

    Trust L1: Registered

    Messages:
    42
    Positive Ratings:
    40
    Almost Interesting Series

    Almost Interesting Series: TF2 Map Game Modes Theory: Combining The Known With Everything Else, by The Association Of Radical Dudes.
    http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/1526/combiningtheknownwithev.jpg

    Almost Interesting Series: Did You Know? Edition, by The Association Of Radical Dudes.
    http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/1333/didyouknoweditionn.jpg


    At the very least I definitely hope this will inspire someone. I mean, I could make up more stuff, but you probably wouldn't like it anyways. I know what the likes you of like, and this ain't it!

    Or at least you could laugh at my typos and whatnot. If you think that I directly stole one of your ideas, well, too bad. It's already in the picture.


    So...Alternative game modes discussion?
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 3
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2009
  2. The Political Gamer

    aa The Political Gamer

    Messages:
    4,468
    Positive Ratings:
    1,684
    You can't have more then 8 capture points. :|
     
  3. Trust

    Trust L1: Registered

    Messages:
    42
    Positive Ratings:
    40
    Oh...


    That...That sucks, surprisingly a lot. God damn you, Valve. You win this battle.
     
  4. martijntje

    martijntje L8: Fancy Shmancy Member

    Messages:
    539
    Positive Ratings:
    168
    indeed everything should end in an explosion. at least my map does.
    fun to read, but I dont see much potential in most of these plans because the tend to confuse the player.

    Even though I have played steel a lot and like it I still find it confusing. (I still take wrong turns sometimes)
     
  5. Dr. ROCKZO

    Dr. ROCKZO L8: Fancy Shmancy Member

    Messages:
    580
    Positive Ratings:
    159
    Try making it simpler, Steel has a lot of routes and they're all pretty equal, so people forget which to take, and sometimes get lost. Just having straight Main paths, and lots of signage would help players navigate around these interesting, and fun looking game modes.
     
  6. Bslashingu

    Bslashingu L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    53
    Positive Ratings:
    11
    More of those side notes, please :)
     
  7. Altaco

    Altaco L7: Fancy Member

    Messages:
    485
    Positive Ratings:
    121
    Some of those last ones are just ridiculous. When you have almost as many points as PLAYERS, that's bad.

    Also: your tip about action-heavy areas is incorrect. Areas where players are more often should have more detail, as it's where the players will be a lot of the time.

    Also I'm not sure about your color theory tip. While players are less likely to notice a door if there's detail clustered further away from it, detail sprinkled around doorways can make them more noticeable.

    A little bit of running to the action is good for pacing as well, though I agree, too much of it is bad. You shouldn't throw players into the action directly out the spawndoor though (except at the beginning of attack/defense)
     
  8. Trust

    Trust L1: Registered

    Messages:
    42
    Positive Ratings:
    40
    Many of the routes were an exaggeration, just to illustrate accessability between the points. Main point of the picture was to inspire someone, I didn't actually hope anyone would implement all the routes directly. T'would be crazy, like, real crazy.


    I found that some people actually liked them more then the actual content. Which was a bummer. But hey, next in the Almost Interesting Series - Did You Know? Edition!

    I disagree, that's not a way to be exclusively bad. Frankly, don't think of those minipoints as full fledged points, think of them as some small closets or rooms that you might capture on your way to somewhere that might help in the long run. If done correctly, that would be interesting to see at the very least.

    But yeah, it would separate the teams too much.

    Strongly disagree, there are many people out there who can barely run TF2, but still play it. In action-heavy areas there is, well, a lot of action. Not only the player notices his low framerate in action, but the action itself hits the framerate strongly.

    Last thing you would want to do is make players lag. Players won't notice that those areas aren't detailed that much anyways, they would be focusing on the action.

    Red and green are counter colors, meaning players would instantly notice the green crate on a red wall, only after that they would notice blue or orange door in the wall. It's not about clustering, it's about instantly drawing players attention to color scheme of what they see. TF2 does not really incorporate this too much, most colors blend with each other, there is no strong contrast to get players attention.

    Of course you shouldn't. T'would be craa-aazee-eey!
     
  9. Lancey

    aa Lancey Currently On: ?????

    Messages:
    3,076
    Positive Ratings:
    1,314
    A good read, but it doesn't work. Well, 2 down at least.
     
  10. TMP

    aa TMP Abuser of Site Rules

    Messages:
    948
    Positive Ratings:
    551
    But then again you need to take in account that in these areas are where the frames will be a-droppin, so you need to only make enough detail to get by, but not too much.
     
  11. Trust

    Trust L1: Registered

    Messages:
    42
    Positive Ratings:
    40
    Almost Interesting Series: Did You Know? Edition, by The Association Of Radical Dudes.

    http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/1333/didyouknoweditionn.jpg

    Y'all play safe now. If anyone has any more tips they want to share with us, please do. I wrote almost 30 of them, then got bored. It's 6 AM here right now. I haven't slept. Might make second revision sometime later in the future, because that is where we will probably spend the rest of our lives.


    PS: Any mod could change the title to Almost Interesting Series? I can't wrap my head around these fancy controls.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2009
  12. littleedge

    aa littleedge L1111: Clipping Guru

    Messages:
    983
    Positive Ratings:
    573
    Problem 1) 8 CPs is the max
    Problem 2) #7 - Advancing in Ways You Never Thought Possible is odd. You say you cannot go form mid to other team's second point, but you can go back to your point? That would mean there are one-way doors, and that is bad. At first, i was thinking "oh, it's a drop down" but then you wouldn't be allowed back in your base.

    Everything needs an explosion. CTF map? The intel triggers a command in a computer each time. After all commands have been given (all flags), the computer blows something up. CP/Arena/KOTH? When the last point is capped, the point opens up and a rocket comes out and blows the place up.

    I disagree with Did You Know 1-8 (column-row)
    2-4 is so bloody true. "Wait, what the hell is this? Oh there's another. Oh I see, it's <description>. This is nice."
    1-5 and 2-8 contradict eachother
     
  13. Trust

    Trust L1: Registered

    Messages:
    42
    Positive Ratings:
    40
    Yeah, I guess that would be the only logical way. Is it really so bad? Maybe it'll inspire someone to think of something similar.

    Everything.

    1-8 is debatable. I think more of meant areas where you have to go all the way around some height level to get to it, and that is your only way.
    I also got wording on 1-5 wrong. I meant nearby passageways. So really, they enhance eachother, there shouldn't be access to the objective just from one side and close to each other.
     
  14. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

    Messages:
    5,436
    Positive Ratings:
    3,573
    If a player can't run TF2 at a decent framerate he has an old or atleast poor computer (that probably wasn't created for gaming). If he wishes to play TF2 with a decent framerate he needs to get a computer that isn't atleast 5 years old.

    Altaco is right. Area's of high player traffic require further attention to detail. However "detail" is a loose term because you can create a scene with not very much detail at all. If it convinced the player by immersing him, he acknowledges his surroundings and makes further assumptions of his location. "Filling in the blanks" as it were.

    But seriously, i feel i need to reitterate this point, if someone can't play TF2 at a decent frame rate they really need to get a better system because we're not even talking about a "next gen" game here. Considering the lower end users of PC gaming is certainly a factor but this shouldn't compromise the extent to which a maps potential should reach.

    The rest of the TF2 players with decade old computers can make do with orange_x. Despite the fact that this is not a 'next gen' game, people should not be buying high end games when they don't have a high end systems. That's stupidity on their part, and not a legitimate reasoning for telling level designers to include less detail in their maps.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2009
  15. littleedge

    aa littleedge L1111: Clipping Guru

    Messages:
    983
    Positive Ratings:
    573

    I realized that I'm incorrect. One-Way Doors wouldn't work either. It'd have to be Team Only doors, as if the doors were spawn doors. THEN it could work, but it's silly to do such a thing. You could always make it just really hard, to go from middle to second point, and much easier and more efficient to go from your second point to their second point.
     
  16. Mexican Apple Thief

    Mexican Apple Thief L3: Junior Member<br>LEAD FARMER

    Messages:
    345
    Positive Ratings:
    60
    Ironically, Horse was the one that ended up inspiring me.
     
  17. Trust

    Trust L1: Registered

    Messages:
    42
    Positive Ratings:
    40
    They need and they should get a new computer, but that isn't happening. We're entering the whole sacrificing feelings and emotions from one part of playerbase to enhance the feelings and emotions of the other part of the playerbase thing. We can't put any restrictions on who plays our map, so I guarantee you that a lot of people who will play your map will do so with a microwave or a refrigerator. That's why we should (debatable) take care of them, because they are playing our map.

    I'm also not talking about any particular level of detailing, more about difference and relation between action heavy areas and quiet areas of the same level. What I'm trying to say is - don't detail action heavy areas as much as quiet areas. Obviously the more you choose to detail something, the more will it lag and take players attention away from the important stuff. Like you said, detailing is there to make players feel immersed, not just to be there, and you can immerse players without going apeshit while detailing your map.

    Also, traffic isn't really action. Players running to the front lines won't notice a little drop in the framerate, but when they're there, fighting the enemy, oh boy will they notice it.
     
  18. Blue552

    Blue552 L3: Member

    Messages:
    137
    Positive Ratings:
    18
    Yes you can, you just can't have more then 8 'scoring' capture points.

    You can still use additional points to unlock doors, build bridges etc. They just wont show up in the HUD.
     
  19. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

    Messages:
    5,436
    Positive Ratings:
    3,573
    Area's of high traffic are generally area's of frequent combat. The player count attracts other players to the "potential" points they represent.

    Also when i say traffic i don't necasserily mean players walking from one location to another, you're reading it out of context. Traffic doesn't necasserily mean linear movement. But the amount of time that is spent in said location, in combination with how many players that are likely to see this space.

    Detail will always be relative, and should be represented irrespectively. If something requires detail, in a significant location within your map, then they should give it that detail without hesitation. I'm sure they'll take every precaution to optimise it to the best of their abilities. But this is down to the experience of the level designer. Unfortunately, most of the officialised custom content has been made by less than novice level designers, who are incapable of optimising a map regardless of the levels of detail. So poor performance is never really down to the amount of detail but the individuals ability to control said detail properly.

    You shouldn't be telling people not to detail area's that see a lot of combat, it's quite irrelavent in the larger context. You should spend more time telling people how to achieve this detail without compromising performance. You're really only telling people to avoid a problem they don't understand.

    Of course, the engine does have its limitations. But we're talking extreme cases here which are normally capped by the compile tools anyway.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2009
  20. Ravidge

    aa Ravidge Grand Vizier

    Messages:
    1,544
    Positive Ratings:
    2,495
    Most of those are too complicated, and more points does not equal better gameplay... probably the opposite actually. TF2 is a fast game, keeping the action simple and focused is really the way to go.