Temple

[DJive]

Alright =) After watching both gameday demos here's the list that i have..

**in no order***

• Do something about Demo's SJ'ing in capture
• Spawn Camping
• Reduce Capture area size to the coffin
• Fix the crazy ass announcer
• Resources Suck.. bad.. maybe place in middle under path
• Better team coloring.
• Stairs near spawn rough? *verify please*
• Do not allow pick up flag before setup is down
• change setup from 1minute to 35secs
• Remove/tweak the spire on the side *i have an idea*
• Increase flag return time to 7-8 seconds
• Fix shooting through startup doors
• Blue spawn door issue *resolved, same name*
• Change invisible setup walls to visible
• Allow full travel around map *see side spire*
• Clipping?
• Fix team case coloring

Whew!, quiet a list.

Ill get cracking on these.

Thank you guys a ton for the warm welcoming of my first public map =)

Please keep feedback coming.

 

[engoldin]

Hey DJ. Let me begin by saying really beautiful map. I don't know whether it's the Egypt textures or your genius or both. Lets just assume for the sake of your ego that its 100% you. Really great looking map man. Composition is excellent also. It's got plenty of open space but there are so many routes, subroutes, and natural bends in the geometry that cover isn't a problem. I'm going to go through my memory and recount the issues I observed as best as I can and then I'll see if I can give you some more specific advice about resource placement.

- Capping the intelligence is unusually easy to accomplish. If this accords with your intended design I would recommend that you raise the number of caps to win or the map will cycle very very quickly. 5 seems like a good number to me. If not the intelligence needs to be made less accessible.

- You have two routes less traveled. All routes are being ignored by and large in favor of the central upstairs route. There are lots of reasons for this. It is faster than the side route. It has better cover than the low route. People are branching off onto the other routes after that large open space in the center is cleared but a lot of your map is being underplayed. It's alright to have one less traveled route. I has the advantage of being safer by virtue of player density, but you have two. I recommend you raise the traffic of the lower central route. Adding cover may increase foot traffic but I think you're going to have to use resources to tantalize the player into running it.

- Intelligence can be picked up during setup time. This doesn't adversely affect gameplay in any major way but seems wrong to me. Imagine a PL map in which the player can push the cart 1/3 of the way to the endpoint during setup. Just doesn't sit right with me.

- Setup doors don't cover the allotted space very well. It looks a bit sloppy and enables players to fire through said doors. Further, many of the doors are entirely invisible. This strikes me as being inconsistent and could potentially confuse the player.

- There is a staircase next to the respawn room that doesn't level out before it reaches the barbed wire fences. This just doesn't flow well with the smooth, well thought out aesthetic you have going elsewhere. It feels rushed and out of place.

- Spawn camping. Nuff said.

- Intel cap area is fairly large. It's a lot easier to suicide rush a capture zone in rctf than it is to escape the capture zone in ctf. Might wanna think about narrowing that trigger a bit.

- Resource distribution is awkward.

- You have a couple of invisible barriers where it looks as though the player should be able to go. I'll screenshot them for you. The are on the perimeter of the map where the outside route stops.

- Aesthetic is so unchanging throughout the level that people become momentarily disoriented. This is not a large problem as the map is small and people reorient quickly.

- Announcer... crazy... Nuff said.

- Respawn doesn't need to be facing backward when the view afforded from said spawn is so limited. It can face backward if you'd like but it doesn't have to be.

- Map is on the sniper friendly side. This isn't wrong, I just don't like it.

That's about it for now... I'll try to get you the screenshots/ resource distribution recommendations I promised you soon. Cheers. All in all, a great map with only minor problems. I think it's pretty close.

 

[Mar]

This map was fun but seemed to be quite unbalanced for classes. the team with the best medic usually won.

While I was unable to play it (at my sisters' ballet performance) the comp player in me would like to point that the medic is the most important class in the game, and that the team with the best medic wins the statistical majority of the time. So that's actually a good thing that your medic matters.

 

[uma plata]

Now that's how you use the Egypt textures

Looks amazing

 

[grazr]

While I was unable to play it (at my sisters' ballet performance) the comp player in me would like to point that the medic is the most important class in the game, and that the team with the best medic wins the statistical majority of the time. So that's actually a good thing that your medic matters.

I don't agree. A team with a medic will usually, in general, fair better than one without; but it completely depends on the intelligence of the people the medic heals. There's nothing more enraging than a medic that heals one person.. but a good medic that keeps everyone over healed will make the enemies life a lot harder (agree). Your average player with a medic will automatically become more comfortable and just wade into most situations without thinking twice simply because he has a health advantage. BAD IDEA. This makes the medic completely redudant, and makes most assaults more likely to infact fail. The success of an assault bares completely on the skill of the 'assaulters', with the medic allowing a sustained assault.

HOWEVER: In this map it became an issue when locking down the spawn and flag point. Locking down the CP for even less than a minute.. 30 seconds even.. allowed 2 scouts to rush 3 captures in quick succession and win the game. The medic provided enough HP to absorb flak at the capture point for the scout to rush the flag in the chaos. Whilst this sounds like a legitimate tactic it is NOT fun when you're stuck in spawn as a result of said tactic and makes any sort of defence futile more than simply difficult.

Speaking as a player who plays the assault classes a medic combo only means extra points, longer combat and more blood. Because this map had little health it over emphasised the medics role in much the same way arena does. Arena works this way because it is an annihilation mode. CTF is CTF and works on the basis of specified rolls, based on effective combat ranges, under the 2 major rolls of offence and defence. All working in unison to to either buy their team time or complete the objective.

The medics roll is in no way more important than any other class in CTF. A team with an equally good soldier has as much chance of winning than one with an equally good medic. If not more, as the soldier is more likely to complete the goals at hand (Capture the flag) than the medic. As his class is specifically targeted at winning the game.

I've seen the same inpenitrable Defence of Stage 2 CP 2 of Dustbowl, a lock down of 4 SG's with medic heavy combo's, defeated without a single uber, more frequently than with a triple uber assault. It all depends on the intelligance of the players.

Which gives me a good idea. put a 20 second wait (give or take) on the flag return after capture, if possible. to stop the quick succession of captures.

 

[Mar]

Valve tried testing out a plant the flag mode and decide that it depended to much on the skill of one player, and that a bad flag carrier would ruin a match. This seems to not be the case. (wonderful playtesting valve)

What seems to be the problem is that if a single scout slips threw the defense he instantly takes the control point, giving the defense no time to respond. Even on the final point of cp_badlands, which is the fast cap in any valve map, the defense still has 1 sec to respond. I would highly suggest that there is a small time limit on the cap so that the defense has a at least a second to respond to any capper. It's really frustrating how easy it is to cap.

Another idea would be that the flag carrier "unlocks" the control point and that another teammate has to step on the point to cap it. This would make it so that you have to have almost total control of the control point instead of just sneaking in one lucky guy.

And if all else fails, you can always make this into a normal cp map.

 

[DJive]

Which gives me a good idea. put a 20 second wait (give or take) on the flag return after capture, if possible. to stop the quick succession of captures.

Hmm might be worth looking into. Will force the teams to do some D and withhold an attack for a tiny bit. I like this idea.

 

[Hellfire]

i rly suggest you to try usual CTF,or at least make 2 versions for gamedays FRI\SAT: a CTF one and an RCTF one,just to see what plays better..

 

[DJive]

Thanks so far for the feedback guys.

SOOOO an update for those who are interested.

The past 8 hours i ripped apart the map and rebuilt it. D: No worries though, You'll be lucky to notice any difference.

What i did was rebuild the whole thing so EVERY brush is on the grid and all 45 or 90 degrees. Also all the brushes are now 8 units thick.

What this means? much easier for me to add detail.

While i haven't gotten to to much of the list, this is what i have done so far.

• Reduced Capture Area
• not allow cap durring setup time
• changed setup to 35 seconds
• return time on intel 8 seconds
• Removed spire on the right *more on this later*

Oh.. and some of this cause you know me =p

| | |

I changed the side area near the stairs, extended the building a little. This will allow better control of traffic high OR low.. giving a player the choice of either but not both, Because of this i feel it will be taken with a little more strategy. (Scene in picture 2 and 3)

Also last screenshot was what i had in my head for a long time.. while prolly not possible =(



Enjoy and thanks!

EDIT: on a side note any good Modelers looking for a grateful mapper to use some of their work? I'm in need of some models.

 

[grazr]

Putting a platform there will allow for a more protected sg position. So far there were no viable sg positions because there was little in way of high ground. Infact the 'defencive ground' is the 'low ground' which in general makes it hard to defend.

Putting the flag position back further will hopefully allow people to deal a little more damage to the flag carrier before he lands the cap. Hopefully making the area less susceptable to scout rushes. Also this will allow the SG more time to deal killing blows to potential threats rather than just pushing the carrier onto the CP even faster. Since most sg's were placed against the wall on the flanks of the cp, looking back on it (as would be the case for this suggested SG position).

 

[Not_Yet]

looks a lovely map

 

[DJive]

Putting a platform there will allow for a more protected sg position. So far there were no viable sg positions because there was little in way of high ground. Infact the 'defencive ground' is the 'low ground' which in general makes it hard to defend.

Putting the flag position back further will hopefully allow people to deal a little more damage to the flag carrier before he lands the cap. Hopefully making the area less susceptable to scout rushes. Also this will allow the SG more time to deal killing blows to potential threats rather than just pushing the carrier onto the CP even faster. Since most sg's were placed against the wall on the flanks of the cp, looking back on it (as would be the case for this suggested SG position).

Ya i hadn't thought of that SG spot, ill try that out.

Putting the flag back im having trouble with size and placement. i "Could" use the main center stairs board them up and place a plateform on there? thats all i can think of though as far as bringing it back.

 

[DJive]

5-7-09 Update..

Today i worked on walls, walls and more.. well walls.. OH! and setup gates, but they are not in the screenshots.

Currently these are 11 total brush walls, top to bottom that is. Prior build *gameday _a3* had 3.

Yup, 3 to 11.

****If you want to see what a 3 brush to 11 brush difference looks like..

Alpha_a3 OLD

And i still have been chipping away at that darn list.. So far what else ive done is..

• Fixed shooting through stetup doors
• Spawn door issue, BLUE
• Changed invisible wall setup doors
• Clipping stairs

Thanks so much for the interest and feedback all!

 

[Sgt Frag]

Looks pretty cool. I like the design alot, the shape of the pillars is cool and would be easy enough to make a model from.

I think the small vertical details on the pillars don't render well though. Stuff like that seems to have a hard time with aa.

 

[DJive]

5-12-09 Update..

Taking feedback and ideas from the guys in chat, DrPepper and with some great ideas from Grazr this is the current intel point area.

Also note that:

• There is now a pad to the left
• No more spire on the right, added stairs

Mind you there is no stairs in the bottom picture, there will be =) havent rebuilt it yet.

 

[Hellfire]

great for gameplay
but dislike textures near intel, white looks bad in contrast to egypt style

 

[grazr]

great for gameplay
but dislike textures near intel, white looks bad in contrast to egypt style

I think it's a place holder DEV texture.

---

The stairs are excellent, it was always hard to assault from this direction. Soldier's were always trying to jump over from further back there.

If you can do some testing, i know there are some measurements floating about somewhere for jump heights and crouch jumping heights. If you can make it so that your average class can't jump over that wall directly infront of the intel but scouts can double jump over (and demo's and soldier's explosive jump, which i assume they can unless it's clipped) it would be a nice feature for those classes. But particularly the scout as the main flag runner.

I was actually gonna put that screenshot with the paint overs up here but i guess you don't need it anymore!

I'm not entirely sure how difficulty of capping the intel will be effected by allowing players to run right from spawn and up the ramp there directly at either side of the intel; i really liked the idea of defenders coming up from either far side. It'll probably reduce chances of a cap which generally is good since this was somewhat of an issue on the past gameday, but i'm not sure about such direct defencive access should be allowed. (Soldiers could rocket jump up no problem, of course how ever). I guess only more playtesting will tell.

There's certainly some good cover now for defencive players, have you thought about crates and other miscellanious props? It wouldn't be hard to make it look like a historic expidition mining team thing. Put in some pretend fake doors on the walls that would hint at some hidden treasures or tombs within/behind the walls. But this is only easthetics.

 

[DJive]

great for gameplay
but dislike textures near intel, white looks bad in contrast to egypt style

I think it's a place holder DEV texture.

Yep its only a DEV placeholder because since it wasn't part of the main layout originally i want to see how it will playout before i put a lot of work into it. Being the drastic change that it is.

---

If you can make it so that your average class can't jump over that wall directly infront of the intel but scouts can double jump over (and demo's and soldier's explosive jump, which i assume they can unless it's clipped) it would be a nice feature for those classes. But particularly the scout as the main flag runner.

The front wall is in 2 parts..

Every class can jump on the first part and then jump onto the second.

Scouts can double jump the whole thing with a crouch jump OR a regular jump from the stairs.

I'm not entirely sure how difficulty of capping the intel will be effected by allowing players to run right from spawn and up the ramp there directly at either side of the intel; i really liked the idea of defenders coming up from either far side. It'll probably reduce chances of a cap which generally is good since this was somewhat of an issue on the past gameday, but i'm not sure about such direct defencive access should be allowed. (Soldiers could rocket jump up no problem, of course how ever). I guess only more playtesting will tell.

Ya im not to sure as well =) From what Pepper tells me *ive never played old tf* Plant the flag used to be a HARD for the team to plant it and it took teamwork etc. With these recent changes I feel like each team will have to work A LOT harder to cap and there will be less *much less* suicide scout rushes.. at least i hope.

There's certainly some good cover now for defensive players, have you thought about crates and other miscellaneous props? It wouldn't be hard to make it look like a historic expedition mining team thing. Put in some pretend fake doors on the walls that would hint at some hidden treasures or tombs within/behind the walls. But this is only aesthetics.

Yep yep, I still want to pretty the map up with aesthetics. I'll get into that around _B1 or so, but thanks for more idea's =)

Ideally the platform where it is now will be nice wood etc etc and on it instead of those metal barriers will be stacked stone or other more theme fitting works.

 

[DJive]

5-14-09 Update..

Wow.. BIG change in layout however i "think" it will help gameplay or lets hope..

Roughly changed the whole right side of the map.

Hopefully providing these changes are a good thing.. i should have alpha_4 out by the weekend =) I doubt in time for Sundays gameday though

Thanks all !!

 

[Hellfire]

pls pls try to be on sunday gameday,i love this map and want to play on new version