Tell me your issues with the CTF Push gametype

Discussion in 'Contests' started by Icarus, Jun 23, 2009.

  1. Icarus

    aa Icarus

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    I've been getting a few complaints from people I know about how CTF Push "Doesn't work", but I never get any specific reason other than "I don't like it", even when I ask them.

    So I would like to know, if you don't like CTF push, specifically what do you not like about the game mode?
     
  2. zpqrei

    aa zpqrei Theme Changer Extraordinaire

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    (Fixed spelling mistake in title)

    But...I think it works, and I like it.
     
  3. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    It would be a lot easier if there was a working HUD, that's for sure. Because either HUD, CP or CTF, has it's draw backs for this mode. This is one obvious reason out of a few reasons.

    I'm sure the mode would work if a map was made appropriately for it. But as it is a map has not been made that fully compliments this mode yet. What with Valve having dropped the mode there are no guidelines of how do produce effective gameplay for the mode.

    I think it's the insta-cap that gets most people, and teamwork isn't necasserily a factor for attackers. Attackers kill the enemy and the courrier sneaks in for the cap. There's no chance to fight back from a close shave. In CP mode, everyone dies together for the same objective because everyone can achieve the goal at hand. I can see how people would be dissapointed with a death if they were only fighting to wipe out the enemy team for the courrier. A couple times myself on the contest testdays i found myself thinking "all this running forwards, fighting, dying and respawning all seems rather endless and pointless". I'm not sure. Maybe this is why Arena mode wasn't a big hit either. Plus we all know how players hate waiting around, so waiting for the intel to respawn probably just bugs them to hell, when they just want to get on and cap the map.

    They are only guesses. As you said, anyone who has ever said why this mode "sucks the balls" has never fully articulated why. Which is unhelpful criticism.
     
  4. Sebhael

    Sebhael L1: Registered

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    Hm, well - I'll be quite honest when I say I've never played a CTF Push game...

    Is it supposed to be just like the old school PUSH for TFC and FF? Where you grab the ball/flag and head into the other team's base?
     
  5. Waif

    Waif L7: Fancy Member

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    I dont like it because the game mode often forces the map to be made narrow and easily defendable with many chockepoints.
    This unfortunately doesn't favour classes that need area for manovouring, such as spy and scout.
    Plus having it instant cap is often frustrating for defense because it strongly encourgaes red to sit on the chokepoint and not push forward.
     
  6. TMP

    aa TMP Abuser of Site Rules

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    The only thing I don't like about it is that it doesn't have enough explosions.

    To be honest, I love the sneakcouriering. It's very cool.
     
  7. Nineaxis

    aa Nineaxis Quack Doctor

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    My biggest problem is how easily BLU can feel they have made no progress because the flag resets so quickly in all these CTF push maps. You don't feel like you are pushing it forward to an objective, but rather, dilly dallying around the cap point until a scout can sneak it in while RED is distracted. I think Mangy has it right in Aurora- 90 second return timer. BLU actually pushes the flag towards the objective and having a scout die doesn't mean the same scout picks it up at spawn, or BLU entirely forgets about it because they are taking teleporters and the flag pickup is around a few corners. It encourages a more dynamic defense from RED depending on what route the flag carrier(s) take, and it gives the opportunity for any BLU player to contribute to moving it instead of just a couple repeat flag carriers taking it from spawn.
     
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  8. drp

    aa drp

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    its a balance issue. like it was stated, there is no official map to compare any customs to. so its definitely a balance issue that can be worked out with rigorous testing. maybe a cap delay with extended flag return timer.

    holy crap i spelled rigorous correctly on my first go.
     
  9. drp

    aa drp

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    what if for a special gameday, we play a couple of hours of push ctf maps in TFC. yes, Team Fortress Classic.

    Just so we can get a sort of refreshing look on the gametype and how Valve managed to balance it out. obviously, the most glaring difference is the uber factor, but i think that aspect of TF2 can also be balanced to work with the gametype.
     
  10. Sgt Frag

    Sgt Frag L14: Epic Member

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    I got to play a few of the contest entries last night and I'm not really digging the mode either. The maps were nice, but the mode is iffy.

    To expand on what Grazr said. At least in arena everyone is on even grounds. One team doesn't have the up on another because of set-up time. Sure, you get to keep spawning, but it's basically a ruysh to your death, ad naseum.

    But it basically turned into a sentry fest as that's the only way to protect the point, don't let them get near it.

    So the issue most people had with the regular ctf mode is turtling (having 2-3 engies lock the place down). Now it's twice as bad because there are 4-6 engies turtling, all helping each other. Some of the maps had areas that were almost impossible to break through to get the sentries, if you got close you were swarmed by pyros making demos worthless to kill sentries.
    If you got an uber you had 3 sentries over here to kill and 3 over there, alot of work for an uber. That's if no airblast, bonk, etc.. got involved and stopped it.

    I actually prefer the Avanti maps. Very similar but I think the one round instead of multiples is better. Each little set-up stage just magnifies the problems. It lets the defending team keep you pushed back to spawn, in avanti you can push them back further as they have to stay back and protect, with small areas and only 2 points they can stay in the foward position alot easier.

    Also, flag carriers seems to maybe make the game exciting for whoever has the flag but other players can feel lost/out of the loop.

    On top of that there is no hud telling you which point is capped. It's easy to miss what's going on.

    Sure teamwork makes it easier but how many games do you play where even half the team really works together. This mode seems to need at least half the team working together at all times.
    -------
    I really wish the contest had left a little more room for standard gameplay. I have almost no interest in PLR and after a few games of this ctf mode my interest in it is waning very quickly.
     
  11. Icarus

    aa Icarus

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    Would some of these problems be relieved if both teams knew when the intel was nearing the CP, and if the intel carrier was made 10x more obvious?

    sometimes an intel carrier would walk right by me, and I wouldn't even notice.

    Btw, I don't really like avanti, as do many other players, because of its miserable chokepoints.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2009
  12. StoneFrog

    StoneFrog L6: Sharp Member

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    I feel a single-stage progression like Avanti certainly gives a greater sense of accomplishment and progress, for reasons previously stated. A lack thereof is commonly cited as a reason so many people hate regular CTF maps.

    One problem that always exists with CTF push maps, even in TFC, was how capping was always such an un-emphasized part of the gameflow. Whereas capturing a physical point in TF2 required teamwork (more or less), quite often all one needs to do in order to cap a point with a flag is to wait until the defenders are distracted, or they're all dead, etc. Certainly similar rules apply for regular CP maps, but it definitely makes the entire thing feel rather unimportant.

    It also can be quite aggravating for defenders, in that losing a defensive stranglehold over the point usually assures the enemy will inevitably cap, as opposed to regular CP maps where they still have some chance to counter the enemy.

    That sounds like an interesting idea, although I feel like I'd be one of perhaps 6 people who would actually join and enjoy it. :\
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2009
  13. luxatile

    aa luxatile deer

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    I hate this mode, and I'll gladly give you all the reasons I can come up with.

    - There is no incentive for anyone to cap, except for the one with the intel. What happened to the idea of every player being able to complete the objective, which is clearly present in all other modes?
    - The cap is instant, which means kamikaze runs usually win the day unless the point is well designed. Icarus, your stages 2 and 3 are well designed with this in mind.
    - There's always a possibility for griefers. You can't pick up the payload or Control Points and run off with them and sit in a corner for the rest of the round, but you can do it with the intel. Sure, people on these forums know how to behave, but there are a lot of assholes out there. And you want your map "out there", right?
    - Going back to get the intel again is just a pain in the ass. The feeling of "Oh, there's the intel, I'll just grab it and we'll win... Oh no, it disappeared!" is not fun.
    - It is very much the same as Dustbowl's mode, the only difference is that you're giving complete control over the attackers' objective to one person. I cannot imagine how this little tweak can make it more fun.
    - Dustbowl was remade from push CTF to attack/defend CP. Without having played TFC, I'm sure Valve did that for a reason. Attack/defend CP is the evolution of push CTF, like Payload is somewhat the evolution of Hunted.

    EDIT: Had some more stuff to add.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2009
  14. drp

    aa drp

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    what about regular ctf?

    this is up to the map maker to balance the gametype out.

    again, i can go grab the intel in ctf_2fort and just wait in a corner

    again, this is similar to regular ctf

    regular ctf yet again


    no argument here
     
  15. luxatile

    aa luxatile deer

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    I'll just... number my responses.

    1) There is an incentive for everyone to rush the enemy base and get to the intel in regular CTF. Until you get to the enemy intel, everyone can contribute equally to getting there. And when you do get there, it's just a matter of getting the hell out. And of course your teammates will join you on your way out. As an attacker in push CTF, all attackers can do is spam at Sentries until the guy with the intel can push in.

    2) Absolutely.

    3) If you grab the intel in 2fort and wait in the corner, the enemy will be there within seconds to kill you. If you grab the intel in a push CTF and wait by the spawn, the enemy will have a hard time getting you off the intel. Not to mention griefing is much more inviting when the intel is right out of the door.

    4) But regular CTF has a reasonable return time. Push CTF has only a couple of seconds; however, lenghtening the return time for push CTF might cause imbalance.

    5) The thing is, if one person has complete control of the intel in normal CTF (which is the case), but they mess up, the enemy will be quick to kill him and a more skilled teammate can pick up the intel thanks to a long return time. This weeds out the idiots easily. An intel courier in push CTF may run off with the intel to perform some sort of kamikaze stunt while his team is coordinating a skillful push somewhere else. Said idiot will die, resulting in the intel likely returning to home before the more skilled players can correct it. Basically, the intel courier can mess up much more heavily here than in normal CTF.

    6) To clarify, my mentioning Hunted I meant to hint that I'm sure a lot of people will agree with me that Hunted wouldn't work in TF2 because it relies too much on one person, who may be an idiot. Same thing with push CTF.
     
  16. Psy

    aa Psy The Imp Queen

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    Regular CTF is poor. Long live CP and PL.
     
  17. Dr. Spud

    aa Dr. Spud Grossly Incandescent

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    I think we need to rethink out map designs.

    With the maps Icarus and I made, we basically mimicked the cp_dustbowl design (At least I think Icarus did, I know I did at least). But it looks like it's not working right.

    One other thing that I tied to do with HAARP is to have main rooms that the attackers will always be funneled into, in hopes that everyone has a clear idea of where the flag is. I succeeded and failed in that in some parts of the map, but I'm still working on it.

    What I do know is: in 2fort Valve's general design of the bases was to have rooms with two paths going between them. Like, you've got the intel room, with two hallways leading to the underground section, with two paths leading above ground. That way, people are being funneled to the same areas, but you've still got to think, "hmm, which path is the flag-carrier taking now?" Maybe this design as opposed to dustbowl's would work better?
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2009
  18. Kronixx

    Kronixx L5: Dapper Member

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    I just thought of an idea for defenders to maybe help them pick which areas to watch so the flag doesn't just "slip" in and all of sudden it's game over and everyone saying "wtf happened? did they cap it???"

    So im basing this idea off the Meet the Spy video and the first map that comes to mind is Haarp. The stage with the broken gate that we played yesterday. Let's throw out this idea, put lights on the hallways leading into the cap room. Like a little alarm light that rotates like a police siren per say. When the announcer chick says "SECURITY WARNING!" The lights mentioned will turn on, but only on the hallway the flag-runner is trying to breach. This way everyone knows exactly what is going on, instead of hearing "SECURITY WARNING!" and everyone running in frantic circles and then you lose and still wondering where the flag runner is, this might help defenders defend THE DOORS instead of the point. Just an idea..not sure if it'll work or put too much against blue. I think if this was used there would need to maybe be 1-2 unmarked entrances, IE ventilation shafts that wouldnt be alerted by lights.

    I dont mind the gametype itself, but i think the balance of the gametype and the map its applied to is a very volatile, and edgy balance to achieve success
     
  19. Dr. Spud

    aa Dr. Spud Grossly Incandescent

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    I thought of a couple other things:

    1. We can try giving the flag NO return time, the idea being that whatever progress you make on taking the intel to the point stays. Although, this could lead to greifing opportunities, and just a long return time might be a safer bet.

    2. Once the maps go into beta, we can use graphics to make it very obvious when a point is captured by blue, with lots of signs and lights that change color.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2009
  20. BrokenTripod

    BrokenTripod L5: Dapper Member

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    I'd be down for the TFC thing, but I don't think it would help at all. The grenades make the exit from spawn an explosion orgy and it's really a pain in the ass. I don't know how I had so much fun playing TFC, honestly...

    I agree with Dr. Spud's idea of trying to make the map more like 2Fort where there's 2 possible routes instead of a lot, like Dustbowl.

    Not really sure if I like the mode yet. I've had a few good runs in panamint on defense, but I've also had a few absolute fails on that map too. On defense, whenever I see a scout with the intel, I basically give up chasing him as soon as he's around a corner and go back to death matching with whoever is attacking, assuming my team can take the scout down.

    Also, I kind of think that we should fully utilize the CTF HUD for the time being...Because we can't use the little squares that are normally used for CPs.

    Temporary CTF HUD fix to make it less confusing......?!? Maybe?
    Bolded so people would notice..I felt like I was ranting.
    Basically: Put an intel underneath the CP that is currently active so that the HUD points at the CP that needs to be defended.

    Pros:
    Shows you where to DEFEND, like normal CTF.
    Reduces confusion of which CP needs to be defended, as it points where you need to go.
    Would point the attackers in the direction of the CP they need to bring their intel to, so grazr won't accidentally miss the first CP again. =P (Well, it's not as much of a problem for the carrier, as he gets the pointer pointed the right way. Everyone else though now knows where their intel is and where they should be attempting to help the carrier get to)

    Cons:
    Oh god, the confusion of calling it CTF and using all the flag stuff instead of the single flag HUD.

    Uh, yeah. Perhaps as a temp fix?

    I'm so sorry for any rantage.