Team Fortress 2 Update Released

Discussion in 'Team Fortress 2 Talk' started by tf2.com, Jun 23, 2014.

  1. tf2.com

    tf2.com L11: Posh Member

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    An update to Team Fortress 2 has been released. The update will be applied automatically when you restart Team Fortress 2. The major changes include:

    • Reverted the recent stickybomb damage ramp up change. We will continue to evaluate the use of stickybomb air detonations and potential changes to that mechanic.
    • Fixed being able to taunt with enemies between spawn room doors
    • Fixed a problem with The Senguko Scorcher's materials
    • Updated the Towering Pillar of Summer Shades so they are marketable
    • Updated the attribute description for the Back Scatter to better explain what it doesUpdated the localization files


    Source: TF2.com
     
  2. The Asylum

    aa The Asylum

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    Win-Bombs are back, wooooo!
     
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  3. Micnax

    aa Micnax I maek map

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    Oh god, Demo is OP again

    I mean, more OP than he already is
     
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  4. fubarFX

    aa fubarFX The "raw" in "nodraw"

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    thank fucking god, the glory days of stickies are back. YES!
    I'm not against nerfing demo per se but that nerf was really aggressive
     
  5. Toomai

    Toomai L3: Member

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    Don't you just love it when the whining minority beats the silent majority.
     
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  6. fubarFX

    aa fubarFX The "raw" in "nodraw"

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    "we will nerf stickies and it will make the demoman a defensive class again!"
    that's a great idea in theory but instead, everyone went targe demo. well shit... so much for defensive play
     
  7. shadowslasher11

    aa shadowslasher11

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    [​IMG]
     
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  8. wareya

    wareya L7: Fancy Member

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    if by "minority" you mean "literally every single group of competitive players outside of the very best of the best of 6s players" and "silent majority" you mean "nobody" then yes
     
  9. MrHatlf

    MrHatlf engineer main, majoring in exploiting

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    I was happy with the Demo Nerf.
    Until this update exists.:O

    [​IMG]

    I just hope Volvo makes appropriate changes to the sticky launcher.:glare:
     
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  10. Limeaide

    Limeaide L2: Junior Member

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    Pretty much half the playerbase hated this change, while the other half loved it. This is one of those issues where someone isn't going to be happy, no matter what Valve does
     
  11. Trotim

    aa Trotim

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    Remember how I still did fine, 2nd MVP with plenty dominations, with just Booties + Stickies + Pain Train during the 3h marathon test on Glassworks? And that was my first time trying stickies post-nerf, and I didn't know the map well?

    Well stickies do double damage again, the nerfs to other classes haven't been touched, and Demo can parachute around and spam stickies from above now too. He's never been stronger than after this update. How is this an improvement
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2014
  12. Sergis

    aa Sergis L666: ])oo]v[

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    o well, back to m1m2 i go
     
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  13. TMP

    aa TMP Abuser of Site Rules

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    -EDIT actually I think this post was kinda rude so I removed it-

    -EDIT 2: At the request of someone, I'll describe what my post kinda said. It basically was just me replying to Wareya about what I saw in general feedback on what people thought about the demo nerf. How he referred to there being no "silent majority" basically made me feel like he hadn't seen a single pub reply and that he was focused entirely on TFTV and other 6s majority competitive areas. In more public areas like SPUF and /r/tf2, the concensus seemed to be more in favor of the nerf. In UGC and /r/truetf2, I saw the nerf being about 50/50 for different reasons. On TFTV it was mostly negative. So I just kinda remarked about that, but I felt like I did it in a mean way. Personally, I liked the nerf, but I wasn't really a fan of how powerful demos were in regards to holding off threats from pretty much anything but scouts with relative ease. I do feel like it was probably too strong, but I feel like being able to advance on a demo as pyro reliably was kinda nice, speaking that most classes have like 2-3 classes that just absolutely crush it for the most part, but demoman really only had maybe one or two if you count spy, though who honestly says spy counters demoman?-
     
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    Last edited: Jun 25, 2014
  14. RubbishyUser

    RubbishyUser L7: Fancy Member

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    I specifically came here when I saw TMP post to see the impressions of our resident Platinum player. Please unedit it?

    As for my personal opinions, I really enjoyed the nerf. While I certainly wouldn't say it was a vocal minority of complaints, if I were Valve I would have kept silent and seen how the situation unfolded over a week. Then you can see if the number of knee-jerk reactions decrease and the ones left complaining were at a manageable level.

    I also wonder whether the dividing lines in various TF2 communities had an effect on how I perceived people's reaction. I think us TF2mappers like to think ourselves as game designers, so were more interested in game balance, so we have a higher proportion of "nerf" enthusiasts. Conversely, comp communities want to maintain their dynamic so had high proportions of "orignal" fans, which encouraged others in that community to be more vocal - feeling that they represented the vast majority.
     
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    Last edited: Jun 25, 2014
  15. EArkham

    aa EArkham Necromancer

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    I feel like the "radius ramp up with time" version of the nerf that's been suggested in various places would be the best idea. Means demos with good aim/timing can still do great damage, but it's far less spammable.
     
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  16. RubbishyUser

    RubbishyUser L7: Fancy Member

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    I actually had an epiphany while I was discussing the nerf with my Dad (no, he doesn't have any interest in TF2, he just tolerates me babbling), that the power of Demoman greatly changed the course of mapmaking in TF2.

    That's because it always struck me with Valve's early maps that they were chokepointy and much smaller in comparison to modern versions - compare the stages of Goldrush to the stages of Thundermountain, for example - and my theory is that that change was forced by the disproportionate power of demomen.

    When stickies were used to trap doorways and defend points, they weren't used for their damage dealing potential. When players discovered that stickies were much more effective than pipes in direct combat, they started to be used as such.

    This meant a large amount of damage over a large explosion radius, so players wanted to spread out more. Valve had not previously accounted for this in map design, so to compensate, they did exactly that - making chokes and points larger to allow players to spread out to combat the threat of stickies.

    Of course, larger areas means longer sightlines. Long sightlines need to be countered by a greater density of large props (which frequently looks ungainly) or greater height changes. This means more displacements. Note that Granary has almost no height variation. That's more realistic, but it doesn't help sightlines. That's why community 5cp maps today feature incredibly unrealistic steep hills, like the valleys throughout Process - to deal with the larger arenas, to deal with the longer sightlines.

    Likewise, when we test maps in gamedays, one of the first things brought up in feedback is whether the map is too powerful for demomen. As map designers, we always write off the fault as something wrong with the level design. Maybe it's Valve's problem instead.

    My issue with that is exactly what I've been wrangling with the reduced radius of the Air Strike - it's infuriating when you don't get the kills you feel you should, because your gut tells you that the explosive covers a particular area. In fact, I suspect this is a problem that has no real solution under the current paradigm - Valve feels that the Stickybomb Launcher is too powerful in direct combat, but the competitive community (generalising here) likes the current stickies exactly for that reason. Any nerf would be a nerf too far. As Valve said: "We will continue to evaluate the use of stickybomb air detonations and potential changes to that mechanic." It's not about the strength of the nerf they gave us. It's about reconciling what they want the Demoman to be about and what it has grown to be.
     
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    Last edited: Jun 25, 2014
  17. xzzy

    aa xzzy

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    Goldrush and Dustbowl are dinosaurs, they're examples of 1990's style FPS thinking. Badlands and Badwater are much more modern and have survived the modern TF2 because of it.

    The evolution of map design is way more complicated than saying "it's because of stickies." It does a disservice to the fact that mappers have a genuine interest in creating new ways to enjoy the game and as our computers have grown more powerful, we've been able to pack bigger play areas and more triangles into the scene.

    Maps would probably be even more ambitious if it weren't for snipers.
     
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  18. TyeZenneth

    TyeZenneth L6: Sharp Member

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    Are you saying the long-range moden FPS class is what keeps TF2 from having maps like long-range modern FPS?
     
  19. RubbishyUser

    RubbishyUser L7: Fancy Member

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    I'd be interested to hear what you mean by 1990's style fps. If I'm thinking of unreal tournament, then that means high-speed/low damage-radius-to-map-size ratio, which is pretty much the opposite of Goldrush and Dustbowl.

    Frankly, this and the entire topic of the relation between game mechanic and level design is something that I'd like to have a long 2 hour skype call about. Starring 3-5 people from various backgrounds, uploaded to a Youtube channel.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2014
  20. xzzy

    aa xzzy

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    Narrow corridors with high walls, CP areas separated by S or U shaped halls, fencing players in with clips to prevent them accessing areas where they can see areas without geometry. These are all basic optimization techniques that trace back to Quake (and arguably Doom or Wolfenstein).

    These techniques are still in use today, but mappers have gotten much better at disguising them and faster computers have given us more headroom before triangle count becomes a problem.