T-junctions kicking my butt.

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by Ze Inspector, Apr 12, 2008.

  1. Ze Inspector

    Ze Inspector L1: Registered

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    Hey guys, another question for you, as my hunt to optimize my map has popped out another issue.
    I went through my map the other day and checked through a ton of brushes looking for places to convert things safely to func_details. and I found a lot of them. I was thrilled actually because it explained the 24 hour vvis I ended up doing a few days before. (that was no good. :p) However, upon compiling the map I noticed I had this message nestled in toward the end of the bsp write log.

    I took this to interlopers and found that this had to do with the junction of func-details to world geometry. And it recommended that I reduce the # of func_details in the map thus removing these junctions. It also recommended creating prefabs and importing them as prop_static, but I don't have the software to do that. But I happily went in and started to try and pull unnecessary details because it looked like I wasn't that much over the limit.

    HOWEVER!
    After I replaced a multi brush func_detail with a simple solid I noticed my indices went up!

    Deleted a set of func_detail brushes.
    got...

    Thought I was on the right path,
    Moved a pair of func detail brushes to world.
    got...

    >.<
    Deleted a set of func_detail brushes.
    got...

    *>.<*
    Deleted another func_detail brush
    got...

    Ok. good, now lets try and
    Move a set of func_details to world.
    got...

    So, what the hell, to put it bluntly. It doesn't really seem to be responding very accurately to the minor changes I've been making. I really want to know whats going on. I don't want to keep destroying all the details in the map, and it looked like I was so close to functional originally. Anyone have any experience with this stuff?
     
  2. Paria

    Paria L5: Dapper Member

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    i've not encountered the problem before but this was the best explanation on it i could find

    in simple terms- is your brushwork clean - free from intersecting world brushes and on grid ? and just how detailed is your map in terms of geometry?
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2008
  3. Ze Inspector

    Ze Inspector L1: Registered

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    My brushwork is very clean. I'm very careful about not overlapping world geometry or details. There might be a few cases in this map, but not many. As for complexity. It's fairly complex. I try to keep most of my world walls to 90 degree angles but my details tend to fill those in a lot, with more interesting angles and such. there's a beta of my map here. ctf_secretlab_b1. if you are curious.
     
  4. Vilepickle

    Vilepickle L7: Fancy Member

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    It doesn't matter if they overlap, it happens when detail meets world brushes. I went over this limit on Castle as well. The only solutions are making brushwork into models, or reducing the amount of func_detail touching world brushes
     
  5. phatal

    phatal L6: Sharp Member

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    I asked this question before, but don't recall a response. When you say touching do you mean edge to edge or overlapping?
     
  6. MrAlBobo

    MrAlBobo L13: Stunning Member

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    just by reading his post id say edge to edge...also...im fairly sure someone said it was edge to edge in another topic...
     
  7. Vilepickle

    Vilepickle L7: Fancy Member

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    Yes, "touching" as in edge-to-edge. Since that's what a T-junction is.
     
  8. Ze Inspector

    Ze Inspector L1: Registered

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    In experimenting with this further I found that I could lower the number by pulling these away from other geometry it would reduce the numbers. Though the calculations still seem a little off.

    Does anyone know of software I could use to convert things to models? There are a couple of fairly complex clusters of func_details that I imagine are the largest culprits and would benefit from being props. I have Blender but it doesn't seem to do it. Any shareware or freeware that will work? I'm not looking for anything fancy.
     
  9. Shmitz

    aa Shmitz Old Hat

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    Blender works quite well for creating props, though I'm not sure it has any specific plugins that would allow you to import map files with brushes to directly convert something. XSI may have something for that, and it's free.
     
  10. VelvetFistIronGlove

    aa VelvetFistIronGlove

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    One place to start:

    http://developer.valvesoftware.com/...your_map_into_a_prop_static_with_XSI_Mod_Tool

    It's not trivial to do, though.
     
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  11. Ze Inspector

    Ze Inspector L1: Registered

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    Thanks for the tips guys, I downloaded XSI just now and I'm going through the basic tutorials now. You're definitely right Velvet, this isn't a trivial tool, but getting some working knowledge will help out a lot for future project, and I'll figure it out.

    Always good to get another tool for the belt. ^^
     
  12. Puddy

    Puddy L1: Registered

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    Bump. I saw on another site that func_brushes helped, but was that information accurate? I have this problem on my map.
     
  13. Sgt Frag

    Sgt Frag L14: Epic Member

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    I wouldn't rely on func_brushes to solve the issue.

    They have options for being moveabe/non-physical and whatnot. Using a few here and there probably isn't bad but using alot of them could probably lead to too much computation and possible lag (don't quote me on that).

    But I think they also have issues like stickies not sticking to them.

    I used a few in one of my arena maps for small details like rubble on the floor and trim pieces on the wall so I could make them non-physical. That way I didn't have to player clip them and they don't break up vis-leafs. It also kept it balanced for both teams as one side isn't tripping on rubble while the other side is (even though that's a very small gameplay issue).

    However I only used like 6 of them in the whole map.
     
  14. XFunc_CaRteR

    XFunc_CaRteR L5: Dapper Member

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    I am moving lots of func_details to world - func_details that touch world geometry - and it is not making a shred of difference to the number of water vertices that I have.

    Any other techniques?
     
  15. A Boojum Snark

    aa A Boojum Snark Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado

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    Make stuff displacements or models, offset things one unit, there are a handful of ways. However this might help you understand how exactly they are created so you can better tweak things... http://dl.dropbox.com/u/98931/MappingResources/waterindicies.png
    (heh, it seems the place it was hosted FINALLY went down, glad I saved that picture)
     
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  16. FaTony

    FaTony Banned

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  17. XFunc_CaRteR

    XFunc_CaRteR L5: Dapper Member

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    But they don't take nice shadows the way bsp does.
     
  18. honeymustard

    honeymustard L9: Fashionable Member

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    I might be wrong here but pl_badwater uses func_lod for certain things (usually roof supports and stair edging) which might help. I'm not sure if this is the same thing though.
     
  19. Rexy

    aa Rexy The Kwisatz Haderach

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    I disagree. And you hurt prop_static's feelings.
     
  20. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    As honeymustard has noticed, brush entities such as func_lod, don't cause or recieve this issue. Stair cases are the usual cause for this issue due to the many steps that touch the edges of the trim. turning trims and trusses within buildings to entities such as func_lod or func_brush can cut down on t-junctions.

    func_details still cause this issue as they are only fake entities.

    (good save Booj)
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2010