Study of 3 stage 2 CP maps

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by Grim Tuesday, Dec 27, 2010.

  1. Grim Tuesday

    aa Grim Tuesday

    Messages:
    1,257
    Positive Ratings:
    371
    So I'm planning on making a 3 stage 2 CP map for contest number 6, and I have noticed some issues that plague Dustbowl and Egypt. However, im curious as it what other people think:

    Do you play 3 stage CP maps regularly? Why do/don't you?

    What issues do you notice with the current selection of these maps? How would you fix them?

    Are there any cool environments that haven't already been done, and lend themselves to this gamemode? IMO space doesn't really.
     
  2. HellJumper

    aa HellJumper

    Messages:
    812
    Positive Ratings:
    373
    My main issue with, for example, Dustbowl is it seems too 1-wayed. That is to say, there are little to no alternative routes to the CPs. I say if you had the 3 stage 2cp map more open it would be much much better.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  3. Icarus

    aa Icarus

    Messages:
    2,246
    Positive Ratings:
    1,182
    The thing that bothers me most about A/D maps is when it's too easy to sneak behind an entire team and start spawn camping/building teleports.

    Make sure your flanks cannot completely bypass the other team.
    (Notable offenders: Frontier, Cashworks, Thunder Mtn Stage 3)

    Other things to think hard on:
    -Gradual progression of difficulty
    -Continuity
    -Pacing of action
    -Narrative (Introduction -> Climatic final CP)
    -Support team roles. Blue should be slowly pushing forward against red. It should be very difficult for red to push blue back.

    Oh, and make sure you accommodate Engineers for both sides. Personally, I cannot stress this enough. :)
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 7
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2010
  4. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

    Messages:
    5,436
    Positive Ratings:
    3,573
    Icarus pretty much got the main points.

    I used to play A/D all the time, Dustbowl is a real offender when it comes to stalemates at Stage 3, but it's usually played on 32 man servers so it's not entirely broken because of it's own design (a general lack of space: leading to much more effective spam and an emphasis of certain class/weapon perks beyond the norm).

    The lack of routes and increased chokes is simply progression-difficulty. As you progress it becomes more difficult and this is achieved through tighter chokes and fewer flanks and longer travel times. Whilst RED need to do what they can with an absurdly longer respawn wave timer.

    Feel free to re-acquaint yourself with: http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=10518

    The one thing you want to avoid is allowing RED the ability to defend effectively from a single location. You want RED to be pressured from several directions and cooperate with each other to keep flanks protected. If RED can simply spawn and fight from one position it becomes a battle of attrition.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 2
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2010
  5. Lancey

    aa Lancey Currently On: ?????

    Messages:
    3,076
    Positive Ratings:
    1,314
    3 Stage maps seem to present the problem of having three times the game ends. That means players will ragequit at the end of each stage, potentially cutting down your playerbase to nothing by the end of the map. Additionally, a particularly bad offense who manages to get through the first stage will encounter a completely reset defense on the next stage.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  6. honeymustard

    honeymustard L9: Fashionable Member

    Messages:
    698
    Positive Ratings:
    273
    The problem I have is that the gradual increase of difficulty means that it gradually phases out the lighter classes (though mainly scouts - sometimes spies and snipers (in the case of spies - usually you'll wait a while and just get one kill and then die)). On the first stage of Dustbowl you'll see some scouts, but on the last stage you'll just see demomen, soldiers and heavies. Gorge is a lot better in this regard.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  7. Tinker

    aa Tinker

    Messages:
    672
    Positive Ratings:
    333
    That's because Dustbowl is designed terribly for scouts (and in general, really), not because scouts "get played less when the difficulty of offence becomes higher".
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  8. RawrSpoon

    RawrSpoon L1: Registered

    Messages:
    11
    Positive Ratings:
    4
    I just want to input how much I hate engineers since the engie update when it comes to A/D CP. Red team should NOT be able to push back (Movable Sentries :/), and sentries with triple health make taking out sentry nests extremely difficult, especially when it's a map like Dustbowl that has a vendetta against spies (and scouts and snipers, but spies take out sentries).

    I could go on and on about how much I hate the engineer update, but I'd rather keep it relevant to the thread.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2010
  9. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

    Messages:
    5,035
    Positive Ratings:
    3,992
    haha. this guy doesnt know how to be invincible
     
  10. RawrSpoon

    RawrSpoon L1: Registered

    Messages:
    11
    Positive Ratings:
    4
    Because a single uber can take out two/three sentry guns under wrangler. Ubering a demo won't do nearly as much damage to a sentry gun as you require, and that's the destructive class. 6 stickies per sentry? Seriously?
     
  11. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

    Messages:
    5,035
    Positive Ratings:
    3,992
    You only need to break one and distract the others. It's team strategy. I've seen it done countless times. The real solution is to not play Dustbowl though.
     
  12. Boylee

    aa Boylee pew pew pew

    Messages:
    1,068
    Positive Ratings:
    631
    I disagree with this, I like the fact that each time a round ends the teams get a chance to regroup and revise tactics. If the stages are well designed and have enough variety for all classes then the only reason to ragequit is if the teams are badly stacked or the ragequitee is playing crap.

    Stage three of dustbowl is a prime culprit for rage as it's not well designed, it's a brutal spam trap.
     
  13. Lancey

    aa Lancey Currently On: ?????

    Messages:
    3,076
    Positive Ratings:
    1,314
    The game still ends three times. Whether or not it's good to revise strategy, experience shows players will jump off the bus at the end of the round.