spawn "camping"

Discussion in 'Team Fortress 2 Talk' started by l3eeron, Feb 28, 2008.

  1. l3eeron

    l3eeron L8: Fancy Shmancy Member

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    Hello gentlemen,

    I would love to hear anyone's input on how their community handles spawn camping. Do you think it's OK to camp/build sg outside spawn door? How/when do you draw the line and start warning/kicking/banning for it? There is a heated debate raging at the ville over what is ok and what isnt.

    I'll post my views later, I dont want to taint anyone's opinion.

    As always, any replies are most appreciated.
     
  2. drp

    aa drp

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    I think spawn camping is legit.
    But let me explain my thoughts a little more clearer.

    Spawn camping for me is where you are where you are allowed to be. The game designer allowed you to be there by not making it impossible. Now, nowhere in TF2 do you suffer from 'insta-death' spawn camping. This is key.

    If you die right after spawning like some custom maps allow to happen, then I do believe this is not right and should be limited and or not allowed.

    All of the stock maps have a separate spawning area where you can spawn safely. So it pretty much isnt spawn camping but spawn exit camping.
     
  3. DJive

    aa DJive Cake or Death?

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    it depends, if you are allowed multiple routes out and there happens to be a turret at ether of them, A-ok

    whats not good:
    Turret in the spawn room.
    one way out and turret at the door.
     
  4. Paria

    Paria L5: Dapper Member

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    its always been an issue of contention in fps games, tf2 has lessened the severity to an extent by providing spawn room which are safe and as said above the problem is then shifted to spawn exit camping :)

    personally i see it as requiring very little skill and a pretty lame way to get kills (i.e planting stickies above the spawn door and instakilling the fresh wave of players, in rare fits of boredom i've done it on public servers and frankly it just feels cheap.

    That said im sure the competitive community will see it as part of the game, however for running a public server - especially one which still enforces regular spawn times - i would deem any style of play which detracts from the servers playerbase idea of enjoyment a problem.

    I.e if 1 persons sole purpose for the entire round is to try and spawn camp then its a problem,

    if someone is passing by the spawn room towards the intelligence (e.g 2 fort) and bags a few kills on his way then its to be accepted.
     
  5. YM

    aa YM LVL100 YM

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    I generally have one or two ways out of spawn, with a nobuild brush for about a foot and a half outside the front door.
    I have got one spawn without a door, visualisers but no door, but its never been a problem on that and its been on the server rotation for weeks
     
  6. Narkissus

    Narkissus L5: Dapper Member

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    If a sneaky engineer actually manages to build outside a spawnroom's exit then i say he earned the kills. One rocket will kill him and his level one sentry usually so he had to be pretty good to get there.
     
  7. Shmitz

    aa Shmitz Old Hat

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    In terms of playing TF2, if people can spawncamp, they can spawncamp. It's not an invalid tactic.

    On the other hand, I strongly believe map makers should take significant steps to minimize it as a valid tactic, because being trapped in your spawn room just isn't fun.

    So a mapper needs to do two things: a) ensure there are two exits from every spawn room, or, at the very least have multiple spawn rooms, and b) place the spawn rooms where going for the map objective is more effective than spawn camping. The latter is most important, because you want your map's action to be dynamic. Spawn camping is very static.
     
  8. Apex_

    Apex_ L3: Member

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    I haven't banned very many people for spawn camping the enemy team. Most often a spawn camper can be dealt with accordingly by flanking him or use of a medic (for both sticky campers and SGs outside the spawn alike). It does partly depend on the map, but generally it's simply considered a "cheap" tactic as opposed to "cheating".

    Spawn camping your own team with stickies is something entirely different. People who grief by wiping out a whole wave of teammates in the spawn room are the lowest of the low. Just another hazard of running a friendly fire server, but thankfully they're few and far between.
     
  9. ryodoan

    ryodoan Resident Bum

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    I think that as long as the spawn points are properly designed, (as in you start in a spawn room) then I dont really have a problem with spawn camping in TF2.

    The reason I dont have a problem is eventually you will have enough people in your spawn room that you send out one group to be fodder for the stickies, then sound out another group to wreak havoc. Sentries can only lock onto 1 person at a time so if 3 or 4 people go out at once the sentry will be easily destroyed.

    Spawn campers from what I have seen on the Valve maps only will last a few rounds of spawns before they are killed. Its annoying but unless they are chronic spawn campers that only go into the enemy base to spawn camp then I dont really see a problem with it.
     
  10. Scotland Tom

    Scotland Tom L6: Sharp Member

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    Spawn camping is the reason I like to employ a multiple exit strategy. Take cp_gravelpit for instance. On the Blu team you've got a spawn room PLUS a whole other area for the team to filter through to two exits that cannot be entered by the other team. This completely eliminates true spawn camping and creates "spawn area" camping. Couple that with a few props or brushes that block immediate line of sight between the opposing team and the exit door and you've got a pretty effective defense against spawn campers.

    Really, if the map is designed well, no one should die in the spawn area (save for friendly fire.) And rarely should anyone be mowed down at the exit. If any opposition actually reaches the exit to camp it, whether it's a demo or an engineer... whatever, they deserve to get the kills.
     
  11. l3eeron

    l3eeron L8: Fancy Shmancy Member

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    Good stuff guys...

    Im glad to see that I fall into the majority side on this.

    I believe there is no spawn camping in TF2. Im used to TFC and DoD where there arent spawn rooms with unlimited ammo/health. Where you'd spawn and have insta-death because of a MG/HW just sitting camping there pre-firing into the spawn points (think axis side of Sturm, or blue's advanced spawns in avanti).

    I think it's cheap, and 99% of the time can be over come. Unless I see excessive repeated abuse, I wont intervene.
     
  12. ryodoan

    ryodoan Resident Bum

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    Another thing is in DoD (not DoDS, that game is dead to me) but in DoD my favorite map (Avalanche) it was possible for an allied soldier to get into part of the Axis house and start base camping.

    The big difference here is the fact that in DoD there are lots of dark areas and lots of places to hide in the starting base. So a single soldier can be really annoying. I used to get really mad when some smack tard would come into our base and start shooting everyone in the back.

    However the other game I really like to play online, BF2 I get made when servers have the "Do not attack uncapturable bases" The reason I get mad is because 99% of the time there ARE objectives in those bases, such as radar stations, UAV trailers or artillery. I have gotten kicked from a couple servers for trying to destroy those objects which I think is kinda lame.
     
  13. MacNetron

    MacNetron L5: Dapper Member

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    Most servers have voicechat audible for both teams, so just say on voicechat things like: "demoman 'MightyKilla84' on his way to camp at our spawnpoint again!".
    Works most of the times. Your team will hunt him down, and the other team most likely ignore the guy.

    In the unlikely event you reading this are called 'MightyKilla84', no offense meant, but spawncampers do have names like this...
     
  14. Brandished

    Brandished L5: Dapper Member

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    The funny thing about this topic is the Valve devs see spawn camping as a legitimate tactic and will not hesitate to camp. See:
    http://www.shackspace.com/download_large.x?path=rock_elf/tf2/valve3.avi

    It's even worked into the design of several maps, just look at the three stages on dustbowl, and the sniper box they added above the right exit on granary.
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2008
  15. Koei

    Koei L4: Comfortable Member

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    Spawncamping is usually easily stopped. If it's just a sentry, one demoman can clear it. If it's an entire team, you just need heal a demoman which can sticky the entire area they are camping and blow them to bits.
     
  16. MacNetron

    MacNetron L5: Dapper Member

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    That is because sometimes it IS legitimate to spawn camp. On tournaments or clangames or how they are called, if a person is able to spawn camp, well, he earned it.
    But on casual games, as (you and) I play on normal servers, it mostly is considered bad tactic. But also then -as stated before- a team can overcome such a camper.
     
  17. Shmitz

    aa Shmitz Old Hat

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    I'll camp a spawn exit in the following circumstances:

    1) I know I'm only going to get a few kills, but believe it will buy my team time to regroup and stage a comeback, or to take that last CP when there's only 20 seconds left on the clock, etc.

    2) It's a terribly designed map, and experience has told me that the team that isn't exit camping is 100% of the time going to get exit camped themselves (see ctf_hangar). I'd much rather be on the dishing end than the receiving end.

    I don't have a problem when someone stickies the exit to a spawn, or tries to build a sentry outside it, as long as that person has a reason for doing so at that time, tied to other map objectives. It's when someone never tries to do anything else for 30 minutes except exit camp that I consider them to be a bad player and a pointmonger.
     
  18. ryodoan

    ryodoan Resident Bum

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    I like doing what I call "Path Camping" on gravelpit. Basically, when I am attacking I will run up to the entrances to either B or A and build a sentry there. Even if it only delays reinforcements by 10 seconds that is still quite a bit of time for my teammates to work on getting to and capturing the point.

    When A is captured I move to the hallways from C to B and build a sentry in there.
     
  19. Kirko

    Kirko L2: Junior Member

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    its not a problem in tfc because of instant respawn. but tf2 sucks for that. all the time gives demos to sticky the door or engys to build an sg. oh well. its part of the game. good way to make ur score look good. it is annoying tho when ur playing warpath and a spy just sits at the spawn and waits for the engy to run away then saps the entrances over and over again then u have to chase him to the first point and trap him to kill him. then he does it again and u gotta do it all over again. but. its part of the game.