KotH Sling A4

Something so small that's meant to be chaotic.

  1. Gunslinger

    Gunslinger L1: Registered

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    Sling - Something so small that's meant to be chaotic.

    Sling, a rather small location from the Badlands to have bodies pile up.
    Take a gander at this little beauty right 'ere for the time being.



     
  2. Melo

    Melo L1: Registered

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    Some things I noticed that could be changed:
    -Add more than 1 spawn door
    -Scale everything down
    -Divide rooms up more to make it more interesting
    -Put more props or geometry in the wide open areas
    -Increase the cap zone size (It looks like you just copied it from the ABS library)
    -Maybe increase the distance from spawn to point, depends on what type of gameplay you are going for

    The main thing is it seems way to overscaled and it is too open, I do like the general idea of the layout though.
     
  3. Gunslinger

    Gunslinger L1: Registered

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    Well, what do you suggest what I put in those wide open areas? It kind of stumps me there.
     
  4. nitewalker

    nitewalker L2: Junior Member

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    alright so since you are new to mapping i'm going to go over the entire map and point out some important concepts for creating koth maps, or maps in general.

    first, a few issues with the entire map.

    your map is extremely flat. large, flat areas are bad for a number of reasons. first, they favor certain classes over others. soldiers love flat areas because its very easy to hit splash damage, and snipers hardly have to adjust their aim when they are aiming at players moving on flat areas. classes like scout, which rely heavily on movement to avoid damage, cant stand flat areas where they dont have the ability to dodge, and shorter-range classes like heavy and pyro are sitting ducks in areas that give them no options for cover.
    [​IMG]



    flat areas are also bad because they are boring to play in. movement is an incredibly important part of tf2, and being able to maneuver during a fight to gain a small advantage against your opponent, by doing something as simple as ducking behind a rock or climbing up a small hill, helps create interesting fights. when two players are competing over the advantageous position on a map, it creates conflict and forces people to fight each other. in large flat areas, that never happens.


    another issue with your map is a general lack of routes. a lack of routes is bad for very similar reasons that flat areas are bad. certain classes excel on maps with many twisting routes (classes that like to flank unaware players like spy, scout, and pyro) and on a map without side routes or flanks, those classes struggle. Another reason is that it is just less interesting to play on a map without a variety of routes. when your entire team is funneled to the point through a small number of points with similar walk times, rounds are very likely to play the same way every time. this is obviously not good for the longevity of your map.

    your map suffers from serious scaling issues, everything on the map could be reduced by 25-50% in size and be appropriately scaled for players to use. this pairs with the last point, if you reduce the size of the areas you have currently and add more areas around them, then you will have both an appropriately scaled map and a more interesting layout.

    if you need help with scaling, try putting a well known prop into your map. the badlands spire, a flatcar container, or any prop that you are familiar with. when you put one of these into your map, it helps create context for your scale, and you will realize the areas within map are actually much larger than you realized.

    a final issue with the general layout of your map is a lack of health and ammo. you have a single medium health kit, and a single medium ammo pack on each side, clumped together. if a player wants health or ammo, they will have to wait around on that pack or run all the way back to spawn.
    [​IMG]
    thats it, huh.


    your spawn area has a number of significant problems, but problems that are fairly easy to solve. first, your spawn only has one exit. this is a MAJOR no-no, no matter what type of map you are creating. a single demoman can completely lock down the entrance and prevent a team from leaving their spawn without having multiple players die. second, you have a huge empty space that is not useful in any way directly next to your spawn. you can easily kill two birds with one stone by simply putting an exit from spawn into the empty area, giving it a purpose and allowing players to exit their spawn through a second door.
    [​IMG]


    a third problem with your spawn is trickier to fix, but much more important to solve if you want your map to be fun. when a player leaves spawn, they only have one path to move along for several seconds before they can make a decision. this can enable more spawncamping, but more importantly players like when they can make decisions about where they want to go fight. look at a map like viaduct, where you walk out of the spawn door and are immediately presented with 3 routes. the same applies to lakeside, suijin, highpass, etc. etc. in fact, most koth maps in the game give the player options immediately upon leaving spawn.
    [​IMG]




    now the point. having the point in a box on the ground is generally a bad idea, because it makes retaking the point much harder. the team that has the cap will be incentivized to sit on the highground around the point and kill anyone who tries to cap, forcing the other team to try to approach them on the highground. unfortunately due of the lack of routes, there is only one entrance to the battlements and it is easy to spam out.
    [​IMG]




    your map has 2 existing entrances to the point, one through the yard and one through the battlements. these two entrances are fairly well balanced. the battlements entrance gives a huge height advantage but has a single, narrow approach that is at a height disadvantage, making it dangerous to get to the battlements but powerful once you are there. the other entrance, by comparison, is on the low ground, but has much more space in the approach and has height advantage around the entrance, meaning its much easier to get through the choke. this is good, and i encourage you to try to keep this concept.
    [​IMG]



    finally, i'd like to address this question
    considering that figuring out what things to put in big empty spaces is the entirety of map design, there is no easy answer for this question. however, my honest attempt is this: COPY. copy from your favorite tf2 maps, copy from maps in other games, copy from real life. there are hundreds of thousands of examples all around you of successful design, and studying those things, implementing them into your maps, and seeing why they work or how they are made is the best way to learn how to make things on your own.

    sorry if this post comes off as harsh or overly critical, im just trying to help! hope this can help you think about some important concepts and maybe improve your map!
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2017
  5. Gunslinger

    Gunslinger L1: Registered

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    Hopefully, this should be looking a lot better.
    [​IMG]

    I've added that second spawn door.

    [​IMG]

    A bit of a more crowded area. A big rock should be in the center when the next release is available.

    [​IMG]

    Added some patches to indicate the health packs/ammo, along with the higher platforms to act as possible advantage points. If these don't work out, do tell me. I'll take 'em out.

    [​IMG]

    Sadly, the point is still open and open for chaos as it was meant to be. I do plan on making two short hallways that lead to and out of it, though.

    [​IMG]

    Behind the right barricade should actually be a medium health kit and ammo pack which should hopefully assist so it becomes a bit of a sentry spot. Might make it a small health kit and ammo pack, though.

    That's mostly what I have as of now. Tell me what you think.
     
  6. Yabayabayaba

    Yabayabayaba L2: Junior Member

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    looks promising! But you defiantly need another route. Perhaps adding a building behind the back wall of the battlements, to allow players to flank and bypass a spamming team by accessing the other side of the map. If you want to force everyone onto the point like viaduct you could consider adding another ground level route from near spawn, creating 2 main routes. Also a route leading to the enemy battlements (probably a bad idea) or exiting to the point under the enemy battlements, where spammers would have trouble seeing them.
    sugestion.png
    Thanks for the pic nitewalker
     
  7. nitewalker

    nitewalker L2: Junior Member

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    hey gunslinger, looks like lots of positive changes, if you want to ask me anything about your map or mapmaking in general, feel free to add me on steam
     
  8. Gunslinger

    Gunslinger L1: Registered

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    A4 will be released soon with these nice new changes. (also tmw you forget to disable the hud)
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    A hallway has been added so that players up there have an alternative way of escaping, along with acting as a bit of a new location to flank from.
    [​IMG]
    Like I said, giant rock.
    [​IMG]
    Two barricades have been added so people don't have to run around like chickens with their heads cut off.
    [​IMG]
    Again, that nice second spawn door for people who want to flank the (idiotic) players who want to spawncamp.
     
  9. Yabayabayaba

    Yabayabayaba L2: Junior Member

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    One thing to consider is that this map appears a bit undersized, and with 24 player would be cramped. Take a look at a level overview to confirm or deny this. Please don't just make everything bigger, I quite like your proportion (although the battlements appear a tad high). Before you go making your map huge, play test it a few times, but you may have to move spawns farther from the point and add another courtyard. (Doing so would comply to the viaduct formula, which you don't have to do, but the viaduct formula is proven to work) If you desire to focus all fighting on the central point you may have to increase the size of the point area to accommodate a full server, this is a valid alternative to making a bigger back lines, but due to spawn being so close to the point you may have to increase spawn time.
    k done rambling:D
    Hope you find this useful;)

    Note: i can't find a citation to viaduct formula although I have seen several guides on the topic
     
  10. Gunslinger

    Gunslinger L1: Registered

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    A4 is here!
    Since November 2016, this map was abandoned, but now it's getting back on track and A4 is finally here.
    [​IMG]

    The main point has been extended a bit and has two barricades for more protection so people don't run around crazy and everything.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    The yards have been reworked to be a bit more crowded due to too much open and flat space.

    [​IMG]

    Spawns have also been given a second door to exit out of so players can flank spawn campers.

    [​IMG]

    Additionally, a new hallway leading from the "advantage point" to the yard has been made to act as an escape and flank route. A small health kit and ammo pack also hides behind the barricade.

    [​IMG]

    Two higher platforms have been made in both rooms so players can have another advantage point.

    If you think anything should be added or taken out, please tell me.

    Read the rest of this update entry...
     
  11. Viperi

    Viperi L9: Fashionable Member

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    Looking at the last two screenshots, you need more lights in those indoor locations. Having a rather dark play area is bad gameplay wise.
     
  12. Yabayabayaba

    Yabayabayaba L2: Junior Member

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    I agree, make sure you have lots of lighting (but not blinding). It looks like you may be ready for a playtest soon! I tell me when and I will try to test it.