Server Class Limits

Discussion in 'Site Discussion' started by grazr, Aug 31, 2010.

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Shall we install class limits on the TF2maps servers?

Poll closed Sep 28, 2010.
  1. Yes.

    12 vote(s)
    33.3%
  2. No.

    22 vote(s)
    61.1%
  3. I'm a one class wonder and neeeeeeed to be the 7th Engineer.

    2 vote(s)
    5.6%
  1. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    Just to get an idea of who is for and against this idea.

    Feel free to respond with prefered class limits.

    Take the third option as impartial, even though it implies the same as "no". Although after thinking about it impartial people could just not vote.
     
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    Last edited: Aug 31, 2010
  2. Lord Ned

    Lord Ned L7: Fancy Member

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    Don't see why. We don't often have people on except when there's donators on so if someone abuses a class due to a map they can be easily delt with.
     
  3. Fraz

    aa Fraz Blu Hatte, Greyscale Backdrop.

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    Class limits are restricting and stupid. If a map favours 5 engineers to defend, or is totally amazing for pyros we should let people play the classes we want. After all, testing maps under normal conditions includes class imbalance sometimes. If you restrict a class, you may never find out how good/bad the class can be (say the limit is 3, and 4 engies can lock down a defence, everything will seem fine because of that one missing engy but in reality it might not be the case)

    So unless the class limits are set at like 5 people per class, I'm against them.
     
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  4. Icarus

    aa Icarus

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    I've seen my fair share of "lets all go one class" moments that ruins it for everyone who actually wants to play. It tends to kill off servers.

    Setting it something high like 4-5 would be a good idea.
     
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    Last edited: Aug 31, 2010
  5. Caliostro

    Caliostro L6: Sharp Member

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    Honestly, I'm against it. I haaaaate class limits, even on my own team when we have 7 dickbags playing the same one class. Why? Because generally speaking, when you have people spamming one class, either the map absurdly favors that class, or they're idiots.

    If it's the map, then we need people playing that class, we need to see exactly how it's being abused, where it's being abused, so we can look at how to counter. If it's just people being idiots, they're going to be idiots anyways. Either warn then kick, if they're really just mucking it up/trolling, or it's not gonna help if they go any other class. A bad player by any other class will still be a bad player. I never understood the misconception that a retarded player playing sniper will suddenly become a valuable team player if he's forced to play another class.

    Additionally, if they're idiots, then maybe we DO need one good player in that class, if the server is limited, you're essentially locked out of that one class. Imagine you limit medics to 3, and 3 stillbirths decide to go "BATTLE MEDIC, NO HEALING LULZ!". Suddenly, an a/d map of any kind becomes impossible to win against a decent team because nobody can switch to medic to uber, and those 3 abortions certainly won't.

    I mentioned medic but this can happen with any class. I've had it happen to me during the sniper/spy update when our team needed one good sniper to take out the enemy's defenses... and all 3 snipers were either using the huntsman (and therefore completely useless at everything in every sense of the word) or just about as good a shot as Michael J. Fox would be during one of his crisis...

    At the end of the day, I think class limits just do more harm than good, and I haven't seen enough "class spam" issues on our servers to warrant it IMO.
     
  6. The Political Gamer

    aa The Political Gamer

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    IMO it sounds like we have a bigger problem with jerk players who would much rather jerk off then play the map.

    Besides having more then 5 of 1 class on any map with any given situation is ludicrous.
     
  7. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    Initiating a class limit doesn't mean we cap all classes. Plus having 1 good sniper join 5 existing ones probably wont stop a team from sucking any more than they already do. I also have no sympathy for people who can only play one class. If you have to play 1 class to win you're playing TF2 wrong.

    I do agree to a certain extent that maps need to be tested for class imbalances.... i just fail to see how 4 demos or 4 snipers is not enough slots for a team of 12 players with 9 class options to achieve their goals. Seeing 6 snipers on a CTF map is one of the most infuriating sights to behold, no matter how you might word it, this is not productive play testing, or even just playing. If 2 sentries can/nearly lock down an area is it not obvious more would be worse and subsequently require more layout development? We should avoid letting it go so far that a team uses 6 engineers to bulwark a map so that that is the only feedback that comes from the test.

    The limits wouldn't be set to anything rediculous, we can be reasonable about it.

    Column 1 Column 2
    Scout
    Pyro
    Soldier
    Demo 4
    Medic
    Heavy
    Sniper 4
    Spy 4
    Engi 4
     
  8. A Boojum Snark

    aa A Boojum Snark Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado

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    I fail to see your reasoning behind the classes you've chosen to not limit, or the very fact you think you don't have to limit them all. I have seen every class there is (though medic far less often) be over stacked.

    If we were going for restrictive limits, i.e. 2 this, 3 that on things that are bigger problems, I could see leaving others out. But for across the board "do we want limits to stop class stacking?" I don't see leaving any out as acceptable.
     
  9. Mr.Late

    Mr.Late L7: Fancy Member

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    Ahh... This depends so much what kind of map it is.

    Maybe players should be able to make a vote about class limits. (By default class limits would be off, by voting it could be turned on)
     
  10. Hanz

    aa Hanz Ravin' Rabbid

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    Please don't add class restrictions! :(

    It's always fun to do a heavy boxing game when we are just playing for fun. :O
     
  11. drp

    aa drp

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    i agree

    ┌─┐
    ┴─┴
    ಠ_ರೃ
    <|>
    /`\
     
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  12. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    Because their abilities don't stack in effectiveness per player using said class.

    Assuming you don't just play on the TF2maps servers then you should realise that 99% of servers running class limits have either all classes limited or selectively these 4. I also don't see how it's that hard to comprehend why this is the case either. A snipers or spies effectiveness is circumstantial and demomen create a lot of spam. I shouldn't need to explain why engineers need limiting. One might say the heavy needs limits as well, but heavy rushes are less of a nuisence than the other classes affects on balance (and require medics and team work).

    Scouts, Soldiers, medics, pyros... they tend to remain balanced whether stacked or not. Their weaknesses and strengths don't become greater per player using said class. At least to the point where it wrecks a teams effectiveness.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2010
  13. Fraz

    aa Fraz Blu Hatte, Greyscale Backdrop.

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    I'm for the option of setting class limits on all classes at 4/5. Restricting certain classes is kinda bad. Sure 7 snipers/7 spies do less for the team than 7 heavies/soldiers. However, if people want to do rushes as "all one class" they'll just choose punching heavies, or battle medics or whatever. Either limit them all at 4/5 or don't add a limit imo.
     
  14. A Boojum Snark

    aa A Boojum Snark Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado

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    I wasn't aware this had anything to do with stacking being effective, rather, I thought it was just trying to stop stacking from happening and ruining the game since all one class is crap regardless of the effectiveness.
     
  15. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    I braught this up because i was recieving/noticing a lot of complaints about engineers and/or snipers ruining playtests.

    If preventing 5+ engineers/snipers per team allows for better play testing/general TF2 experience in our servers, it shouldn't be overlooked.

    If nobody complains about a team with 6 soldiers, coupled with the fact that most servers with limits don't cap soldiers, i don't see a need to cap all classes. What i listed was just a suggestion based on personal experience, feedback and what other servers run. We can figure out exact figures later... if we go ahead with this at all. Stats say this is more effort than necassery at the moment.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2010
  16. Caliostro

    Caliostro L6: Sharp Member

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    Yes they do. All classes remain "balanced" when spammed, they're just limiting testing. Having 7 demos on the other team is just as easy to counter as having 7 heavies, or 7 engies. Hell, if you think demo spam is "spamtastic" then you haven't seen a proper soldier or heavy rush, particularly with natascha heavies. Engie spam is generally ridiculously easy to counter with 1 demo and 1 medic. If it's not, then it's a problem with the map, because it provides way too many "safe" spots for sentry nests to cover each other.

    Spam is always bad, but generally speaking I haven't seen enough spam issues in the servers to justify this. People generally don't go in testing a map with the "LEt'S BE STUPID!LOLOL!" mentality, even if they do misbehave sometimes. Generally, if people are spamming certain classes, is either because the map benefits them, or because one or two people are being destabilizing assholes who need to be kicked.

    And I know what you're thinking, "Well, but if we determine that a map has a glaring problem with x class, shouldn't we just move on to another issue!?". If there's such a major issue, you're better off exploring it fully, because you're going to need to change things anyways, and that's going to affect other things anyways.

    Honestly, I still say this is a bad idea. At most keep it on the side, turned on by default but available for an admin to toggle on, as a safety blanket.
     
  17. grazr

    aa grazr Old Man Mutant Ninja Turtle

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    At the risk of falling into an argument let me put it like this. The trend that servers limit these 4 classes is a logical one, whether you choose to accept the reasons or not. A well rounded team has more difficulty dealing with excess engi's and demos, whilst over powering excess spy's and snipers. Give or take individual map circumstances. The fact that servers running class limits choose to limit just those 4 is in acknowledgement of imbalances due to stacking.

    I'm not against capping all classes. Or just snipers and engi's. Though it seems like the voices calling for class limits are merely louder than the number of people who don't want them.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2010
  18. Nineaxis

    aa Nineaxis Quack Doctor

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    After the Engy update I put a 3 pyro and 2 engy limit on the servers and no one seemed to care much.
     
  19. Caliostro

    Caliostro L6: Sharp Member

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    My point was that stacking any class is quite easy to counter, although I will agree with you that stacking medic (which never really happens), spies and snipers generally makes a team underpowered, since they're support classes, and generally end up lacking in the "muscle" department.

    That said, yeah, the pool has remained at a steady 70% against. That said, I still think it could be a good idea to keep it "on the side", off by default, for admins to trigger if necessary. Maybe.
     
  20. owly-oop

    aa owly-oop im birb

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    whatever stops there being 4 or 3 scouts on a team is okay with me