Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by The Stig, Oct 26, 2020.
I want to make a better version of turbine just for fun
It's incredibly basic and small, with boxlike, unimaginative corridors composing literally everything. It's designed to allow teams to spawncamp, since one of the routes out from mid does exactly that. The mid is uninspiring, stupidly sightline-heavy and not fun for any class to fight in. The vents are horrible and cramped, and don't really help at all with the campiness of the intel room like they're meant to do. The intel room is very campable, being right next to spawn with really tight and chokey routes into it and health and ammo everywhere for the defenders' exclusive use. The routing is pretty awful - when you push out of mid your two options are 1) attempt to spawncamp, wow, how fun or 2) push into the horrible, campy intel room. It doesn't even attempt to fix the fundamental problem of CTF as it's featured in the game, where your intel room is behind your spawn, so pushing forward leaves you vulnerable to getting backcapped, so you have to constantly camp your intel room in order to not lose. I never have fun playing as any class on Turbine, because who would want to play unimaginative tower defense in a map where no area is well-thought-out or fun to fight in for hours when you could instead play KOTH, PD or 5CP?
I firmly believe that symmetrical modes are best when the objective often changes hands and the 'front line' often moves as a result of that. You can see that in KOTH, where the point is captured often because it's easier to push than hold, and the 'front line' moves forward after you capture the point, because your team starts a forward hold. You can also see that in such modes as PD, where the deposit zone is locked until a certain amount of time passes, and points are always captured when the deposit zone opens, but the team which is winning in terms of points won't be able to capture points unless they control the deposit zone, so the deposit zone feels neutrally contested and fair. Both modes are very well-liked because of these attributes - that's probably the main reason why anyone who knows what they're doing makes Halloween KOTH/PD, because that's what Valve puts in the game nowadays.
CTF is meant to achieve this too, since the 'front line' is meant to move based on the position of your team's flag (when it's stolen, you're meant to hold forward to reset it), but it ultimately falls flat in that both teams have to stay at their base until their flag is stolen away, before they can push forward. In addition to this, pushing forward does not let teams forward hold (due to the close proximity of the enemy spawn to mid), so it never feels worthwhile to try, so both teams stay at their bases and the front line never changes. This is probably the main reason why people like Invade CTF and Chin CTF so much, because you don't have to stay back at the base to guard your flag, so forward holds are actually relevant and the front line often changes, so the gameplay feels fun and dynamic instead of feeling like boring tower defense.
People hate turbine for the same reason people love turbine. It's a shit broken map, simultaneously its best and worst feature. Sometimes there's genius in being braindead.
Turbine games never end, it promotes camping. Good for 24/7 CTF servers but not for much else
I do not hate Turbine
I'm gonna take the unpopular position that the route layout of Turbine (i.e. the way the routes are connected) is fine and it's just down to the design of the routes themselves that people don't like it. I like the idea of a CTF map where you can roll out to Mid as fast as you can to your intel. Contrary to the other stock CTF maps, it does so without the spawn being right on top of any area the other team relies on (mid, the intel room, and their main route to the intel)
If you expanded the vents into a full-sized flank, connected them to the main lobby/hallway thing, added an upper entrance to the intel room, and de-emphasized the route past the defenders' spawn for attackers, I don't think you'd have a bad CTF map.
Not enough ways to go, resulting in choke points.
Not enought spawn exits, and both are very near to each other, resulting in spawn camping.
It doesn't even look good.
I wouldn't say everyone specifically hates Turbine, I'm fine with it, but ctf maps usually require someone to be down in the intel room actually defending to win. If no one is actually getting to the intel room it becomes rather boring sitting in there and ctf maps are often won or lost depending on if defending engies get bored and switch classes. Forward engie holds are also quite hard to sustain on Turbine as the only place to do so, and cover all routes to the intel, is too big for it. Spies can usually inch intels along long enough for any forward hold to collapse on Turbine. Turbine also really only has one good route to get intel out as bringing it by the enemy spawn is sketchy unless you have a spawn camp happening or are smart enough to time it right and most people aren't. There are actually several pro and alternate versions of Turbine that fixed that with some success.
Comparatively 2fort and Doublecross have some layout advantages and disadvantages for engie. With 2fort an engie can build a forward hold in front of spawn that gets you far more action but still lets you defend both paths to the intel. However 2fort's problem is if you kill an engie in that position he'll have time to respawn before you can run down and get the intel because the intel room is too far behind spawn. Having to kill the same guy twice, along with most of a team if they are paying attention, can lead to games that take hours broken only by engies again losing patience. IMO Doublecross, while certainly not perfect, is in improvement as they learned not to put the intel room so far behind spawn. Unfortunately an engie can still go without action for quite a while as Doublecross doesn't have a good forward hold requiring engies to be in the intel room. People still seem to like 2fort more than Doublecross so what do I know XD (24 hour 2fort servers, and Turbine, were a long running thing, Doublecross not as much).
IMO the ideal (normal mode) ctf map would have an intel room at least half as far behind the spawn as 2fort. Then a build position for engies which can watch all routes to it but those routes should be spread out enough to guarantee some action gets to you. Defending teams should have one chance, but not more, to react to the intel getting picked up while attacking teams are rewarded with actually getting past them and not having to fight a whole team twice.
People who play on 24/7 2fort servers are just deathmatching.
Hell, people who play 2fort in general are just deathmatching.
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